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Page 21 &22..."Conclusions about the Build Models"

  • Thread starter Thread starter BigRed1
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BigRed1

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Joined
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85
C. CONCLUSIONS ABOUT THE BUILD MODELS
The primary failing of the CAL proposal's use of only status, to the virtual
exclusion of all other Merger Policy factors, is that it unfairly, inequitably and
disproportionately benefits one pilot group to the consequent detriment of the other. If
either group proposed using any other single Merger Policy factor alone, like longevity,
the resulting list would also be distorted, but in a different direction. Another defect of
the CAL Committee's proposed ISL is that it unjustifiably creates extremely large tiers of
pilots from a single airline. Some such distortions are inevitable in any merger of
seniority lists. But the career-long blocking effect of those spawned by the CAL proposal
could harm morale and employee relations for decades to come.

21


The CAL Committee's use of an April 1, 2013 base list date is manifestly intended
to embrace the windfall of potential Captain upgrades in February 2014, generated by
premerger CAL System Bid 14-02. Memorializing that windfall by treating captains (or
at least some captains) as fungible equals irrespective of aircraft, while treating others as
“unneeded”, is not a bone fide status & category ratio. And simply disregarding
longevity as an equity factor seems engineered to justify the unfair stapling to the
bottom of the list all United pilots in furlough status on May 3, 2010.
On the May 3, 2010 MAD, United had many more pilots on furlough than
Continental. However, United’s furloughees, in the main, had significantly greater
longevity than the Continental furloughees. Those UAL furloughees brought substantial
longevity to the merger, compared to the CAL pilots at the bottom of the CAL list.3
Further, as a consequence of their respective hiring patterns, United’s First Officers as a
whole had greater longevity than, but also were older than, similarly situated
Continental First Officers. A proposal that completely ignores sweat equity longevity
cannot be a plank in our ISL platform.
In our considered judgment, both the methodology of the CAL Committee and its
resultant proposed ISL are incompatible with the revised ALPA Merger Policy. Aside
from the windfall inequities generated by using an April 1, 2013 snapshot date, total
disregard of the longevity factor cannot possibly be justified in the factual circumstances
of this case. Not surprisingly, the ISL produced by the CAL Committee's fatally defective
methodology is neither fair nor equitable.
3 Six hundred twenty-one of the most junior 1445 United pilots had greater longevity than
all 1512 Continental pilots hired after 2005 (i.e., the bottom third of the CAL list). Tr. 2481-83
(Ruark); UX-5 (Ruark), at 18. The next, more junior group of 633 UAL furloughees had longevity
similar to the CAL pilots hired between 2005 and 2007. The final, most junior group of 192 UAL
furloughees had longevity similar to the 148 CAL pilots on furlough at the time of the merger.

22


At the end of the day, despite our best efforts, we were unable to find a way to
adjust or modify the CAL Committee's list build model to produce an acceptably fair and
equitable ISL. Even with a different snapshot date, contrived differentials premised on
post-merger changes inflating premerger career expectations still drive that ersatz
ratioed model. A gerrymandered approximation of a status-only model that uses
assumptions at odds with Merger Policy cannot be used to build our Award.
 
C. CONCLUSIONS ABOUT THE BUILD MODELS
The primary failing of the CAL proposal's use of only status, to the virtual
exclusion of all other Merger Policy factors, is that it unfairly, inequitably and
disproportionately benefits one pilot group to the consequent detriment of the other. If
either group proposed using any other single Merger Policy factor alone, like longevity,
the resulting list would also be distorted, but in a different direction. Another defect of
the CAL Committee's proposed ISL is that it unjustifiably creates extremely large tiers of
pilots from a single airline. Some such distortions are inevitable in any merger of
seniority lists. But the career-long blocking effect of those spawned by the CAL proposal
could harm morale and employee relations for decades to come.

21


The CAL Committee's use of an April 1, 2013 base list date is manifestly intended
to embrace the windfall of potential Captain upgrades in February 2014, generated by
premerger CAL System Bid 14-02. Memorializing that windfall by treating captains (or
at least some captains) as fungible equals irrespective of aircraft, while treating others as
“unneeded”, is not a bone fide status & category ratio. And simply disregarding
longevity as an equity factor seems engineered to justify the unfair stapling to the
bottom of the list all United pilots in furlough status on May 3, 2010.
On the May 3, 2010 MAD, United had many more pilots on furlough than
Continental. However, United’s furloughees, in the main, had significantly greater
longevity than the Continental furloughees. Those UAL furloughees brought substantial
longevity to the merger, compared to the CAL pilots at the bottom of the CAL list.3
Further, as a consequence of their respective hiring patterns, United’s First Officers as a
whole had greater longevity than, but also were older than, similarly situated
Continental First Officers. A proposal that completely ignores sweat equity longevity
cannot be a plank in our ISL platform.
In our considered judgment, both the methodology of the CAL Committee and its
resultant proposed ISL are incompatible with the revised ALPA Merger Policy. Aside
from the windfall inequities generated by using an April 1, 2013 snapshot date, total
disregard of the longevity factor cannot possibly be justified in the factual circumstances
of this case. Not surprisingly, the ISL produced by the CAL Committee's fatally defective
methodology is neither fair nor equitable.
3 Six hundred twenty-one of the most junior 1445 United pilots had greater longevity than
all 1512 Continental pilots hired after 2005 (i.e., the bottom third of the CAL list). Tr. 2481-83
(Ruark); UX-5 (Ruark), at 18. The next, more junior group of 633 UAL furloughees had longevity
similar to the CAL pilots hired between 2005 and 2007. The final, most junior group of 192 UAL
furloughees had longevity similar to the 148 CAL pilots on furlough at the time of the merger.

22


At the end of the day, despite our best efforts, we were unable to find a way to
adjust or modify the CAL Committee's list build model to produce an acceptably fair and
equitable ISL. Even with a different snapshot date, contrived differentials premised on
post-merger changes inflating premerger career expectations still drive that ersatz
ratioed model. A gerrymandered approximation of a status-only model that uses
assumptions at odds with Merger Policy cannot be used to build our Award.

The vast majority of CAL pilots want to ignore these findings and blame ALPA for their merger committees handy work.
 
At this point what is done is done, I agree our mec dropped the ball with their proposal. However, I still don't agree with the logic of using longevity to put furloughed pilots ahead of active ones. Lets say hypothetically that a pilot was hired, was trained and flew the line for 3 months and was then furloughed. His company then merges with another 5 yrs later. Using the longevity model, he would have 5 yrs of longevity with only 3 months of actual time on the property yet would all of a sudden leapfrog pilots who have been actively flying for those same 5 years with the other company. You cannot sit here and tell me that is fair regardless of what ALPA policy says. It is a windfall for one group and a travesty for the other, period.
 
At this point what is done is done, I agree our mec dropped the ball with their proposal. However, I still don't agree with the logic of using longevity to put furloughed pilots ahead of active ones. Lets say hypothetically that a pilot was hired, was trained and flew the line for 3 months and was then furloughed. His company then merges with another 5 yrs later. Using the longevity model, he would have 5 yrs of longevity with only 3 months of actual time on the property yet would all of a sudden leapfrog pilots who have been actively flying for those same 5 years with the other company. You cannot sit here and tell me that is fair regardless of what ALPA policy says. It is a windfall for one group and a travesty for the other, period.

Sure, but it's not the pilots fault that their company decided to furlough. It is simply bad luck. Why should luck have much to do with seniority? The fact that someone was qualified and got hired, in some cases years before another, should count for something and in this case, the Arby's agreed.
 
At this point what is done is done, I agree our mec dropped the ball with their proposal. However, I still don't agree with the logic of using longevity to put furloughed pilots ahead of active ones. Lets say hypothetically that a pilot was hired, was trained and flew the line for 3 months and was then furloughed. His company then merges with another 5 yrs later. Using the longevity model, he would have 5 yrs of longevity with only 3 months of actual time on the property yet would all of a sudden leapfrog pilots who have been actively flying for those same 5 years with the other company. You cannot sit here and tell me that is fair regardless of what ALPA policy says. It is a windfall for one group and a travesty for the other, period.

Correct me if I am wrong but in your case the pilot would have only 3 months of longevity. The UAL guys were not given DOH they were credited with longevity ie length of service.

Or to use the arbitrators words " sweat equity."
 
I was hired in 2000, furloughed twice, ended up with just under 5 years on property. I was zippered in with late 07 furloughed cal pilots. My guess is 35 % of my <5 years fits in with their 100 %. Though hired in 2000, only the time on property was ever counted.
 
You cannot sit here and tell me that is fair regardless of what ALPA policy says.

I'm actually not a fan of including longevity in the policy. But let's be real here. This is a relatively new policy, and your own Merger Committee chairman was on the committee that crafted that new policy. Your MEC chairman was also on the Executive Board that approved that new policy. Not a word of dissent from any pilot group when the new policy was approved. Complaining about it after the fact is just sour grapes.
 
65% Status and Category
35% Longevity

(Longevity was defined earlier in the opinion as TIME IN SEAT)

- To Bad for CAL that UAL had a much higher percentage of wide bodies
 
At this point, it's a waste of time to sit here and argue about who's right and who's wrong so lets just call it a day and move on.
 
I'm actually not a fan of including longevity in the policy. But let's be real here. This is a relatively new policy, and your own Merger Committee chairman was on the committee that crafted that new policy. Your MEC chairman was also on the Executive Board that approved that new policy. Not a word of dissent from any pilot group when the new policy was approved. Complaining about it after the fact is just sour grapes.

Not a new policy but a return to the policy the way it was before the USAir mess. The lack of longevity is a contributor to the mess they are in right now.
 
Not a new policy but a return to the policy the way it was before the USAir mess. The lack of longevity is a contributor to the mess they are in right now.

The lack of longevity in the policy is what lead to the most fair award in the AAA/AWA case. Including longevity would have created a windfall for the AAA pilots at the expense of the AWA pilots. We were attempting to fix something that wasn't broken just because a bunch of entitlement-minded a-holes at AAA threw a temper tantrum. There are many good elements in the new policy, such as JCBA before SLI, but bringing longevity back into the mix isn't something that I favored.

That said, I think the arbitration panel did a great job of including longevity, but not allowing it to skew the award and create a windfall. Their acceptance of the hybrid methodology, but tilting it more towards category and status, was an excellent way of going about things. Hence why arbitration and allowing a panel of neutrals to make decisions on this subject is always the best way to go.
 
There are many good elements in the new policy, such as JCBA before SLI, but bringing longevity back into the mix isn't something that I favored.

That said, I think the arbitration panel did a great job of including longevity, but not allowing it to skew the award and create a windfall. Their acceptance of the hybrid methodology, but tilting it more towards category and status, was an excellent way of going about things. Hence why arbitration and allowing a panel of neutrals to make decisions on this subject is always the best way to go.

There is no formula as to the weight of the longevity factor. Nor does the policy limit the factors to just those listed and therefore permits parties to attempt to argue any other additional factors that they can reasonably sustain. Lastly, the policy uses as a default a multi-arbitrator panel as opposed to a single arbitrator and neutrals.

The combination of these changes to ALPA Merger Policy significantly negates the possibility of a 'rogue' decision. And the policy also permits the affected pilot groups to settle as many issues as possible and if necessary to just submit unresolved issues to either a single arbitrator or a multi-arbitrator panel. All in all, a significant improvement from previous policy.

There is no merged list that comes about as a result of arbitration that will please all of the pilots. Submission of the entirety of the matter to an arbitration panel almost assures that there will be larger groups of dissatisfied pilots. The revised policy generally supports reasonable positions from merger committees. Forewarned is forearmed.
 
Agreed. Which is why I was in favor of the new policy overall. My area of disagreement is in including longevity as a factor, which I don't believe should enter into a seniority equation.
 
The lack of longevity in the policy is what lead to the most fair award in the AAA/AWA case. Including longevity would have created a windfall for the AAA pilots at the expense of the AWA pilots. We were attempting to fix something that wasn't broken just because a bunch of entitlement-minded a-holes at AAA threw a temper tantrum. There are many good elements in the new policy, such as JCBA before SLI, but bringing longevity back into the mix isn't something that I favored.

That said, I think the arbitration panel did a great job of including longevity, but not allowing it to skew the award and create a windfall. Their acceptance of the hybrid methodology, but tilting it more towards category and status, was an excellent way of going about things. Hence why arbitration and allowing a panel of neutrals to make decisions on this subject is always the best way to go.

We will just have to agree to disagree about the fairness of the USAir arbitration. I am not about to get into that old and tired subject.
 
Agreed. Which is why I was in favor of the new policy overall. My area of disagreement is in including longevity as a factor, which I don't believe should enter into a seniority equation.

Longevity should be a factor and a big one. Again we will have to agree to disagree.
 
He doesn't like longevity 'cause he paid for his job, and has attempted to leap frog his whole career......longevity would sink him
 

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