Joint ASA/XJT MEC meeting

[Nevets]

I haven't really been following the BS going on in the negotiations, but how is it that XJET side has gone from "we'll never give up line bidding", to "we'll only take this PBS system"?

All that time wasted over stubbornness to give up line bidding, and now more time wasted over which PBS system you'll actually use, after all! This could all have been wrapped up a year ago, and we wouldn't be dealing with the fallout from AE and Fagship.

Comical if it didn't affect my livelihood so much.

It's called compromise. One side did and the other hasn't move at all from their original position. That's why it's called negotiations. It's a give and take.

 

[dojetdriver]

It's called compromise. One side did and the other hasn't move at all from their original position. That's why it's called negotiations. It's a give and take.

Somebody needs to "get onboard......"

 

[COOPERVANE]

Nevets....you keep saying compromise.

We shouldn't be compromising WITH EACH OTHER!!! JUST WITH THE COMPANY

Because the LXJET compromised by letting go of line bidding with the company, it doesn't mean it is LASA pilots turn to "compromise" and "give something up" that is ASININE!! Where are you getting this ridiculous theory???

So lets just say that we told the company that we didn't want health care insurance anymore to get on board to save money. Should we then expect LXJET pilots to give up say....401K match since we "compomised" with the company?? Dont you agree that would be insane? Wouldn't it be YOUR TURN to compromise? WE did now it's your turn......right????

So why should LASA pilots give up something we fought HARD for just because you guys compromised to the company???

We aren't negotiating with each other....We are supposed to negotiate with the company!!!

 

[dojetdriver]

Nevets....you keep saying compromise.

We shouldn't be compromising WITH EACH OTHER!!! JUST WITH THE COMPANY

Agreed, but a while back it was the the ERJ side needed to "get onboard" and compromise with the CRJ side.

Because the LXJET compromised by letting go of line bidding with the company, it doesn't mean it is LASA pilots turn to "compromise" and "give something up" that is ASININE!! Where are you getting this ridiculous theory???

Agree AGAIN, but see above.

So lets just say that we told the company that we didn't want health care insurance anymore to get on board to save money. Should we then expect LXJET pilots to give up say....401K match since we "compomised" with the company?? Dont you agree that would be insane? Wouldn't it be YOUR TURN to compromise? WE did now it's your turn......right????

Again, agree. Again, see above. There was a time when CRJ people told ERJ people that the ERJ CBA in current form wasn't realistic, "cost competitive", or whatever else you can think of. And that they'd have to "get onboard" and learn to work with management.

We aren't negotiating with each other....We are supposed to negotiate with the company!!!

AGAIN, AGREE. TFAYD........

 

[COOPERVANE]

OK so some ASA pilots told some of your guys you need to "get on board".

So are you saying you are doing that and now WE need to give something up? so lets just say we do and give up PBS and then give up sick time too....wouldn't it then be your turn? What would you be willing to give up? Just because somebody in one group compromises, doesnt mean the other is supposed to. the company would just love that.

LEt me be clear....I DONT WANT YOU GUYS TO GIVE ANYTHING IN YOUR CONTRACT UP. Just ridiculous 20% payraises we kept hearing about. When you heard people say "get on board" THAT was what they were talking about....the payraise issue.

Now you "compromise" with a horrible untried PBS system and sit back and ask what we are gonna give up. .....hmmmmm I dont know maybe AIR CONDITIONING????

WOW brilliant negotiating skills...we are so screwed.

 

[dojetdriver]

OK so some ASA pilots told some of your guys you need to "get on board".

So are you saying you are doing that and now WE need to give something up? so lets just say we do and give up PBS and then give up sick time too....wouldn't it then be your turn? What would you be willing to give up? Just because somebody in one group compromises, doesnt mean the other is supposed to. th company would just love that

WOW brilliant negotiating skills...we are so screwed.

Nope, that's NOT what I said. I usually like your posts, as well as Centralpilot's because they're the most rational/level headed from from the CRJ side. So don't get your panties twisted by misreading what I'm saying.

I'm merely pointing out the round and round/stupidity/circlejerk-ness this has all become. As well as how it was expected that the ERJ side should just bow down and have to surrender.

 

[COOPERVANE]

Surrender to what? ASA pilots? You act like you extended a hand to us and we slapped it away.

You extended it to the company and surrendered your line bidding demand to the company. you then turned to the ASA pilots and said YOUR TURN????

 

[dojetdriver]

Surrender to what? ASA pilots?

Well, with all due respect, yes. There was that mentality that the ERJ side should surrender to the CRJ side. After all, there were some that feel they "saved" ExpressJet singlehandedly. You know, because those CRJ pilots PERSONALLY wrote the check and all, Jerry had NOTHING to do with it.

You act like you extended a hand to us and we slapped it away.

You extended it to the company and surrendered your line bidding demand to the company. you then turned to the ASA pilots and said YOUR TURN????

AGAIN, you're misreading.

And I'm not sure where YOU'RE getting all this childish personalization from. I didn't 'surrender ANYTHING and I'm NOT on the JNC.

I just want whats BEST for BOTH pilot groups when this is all said and done, although hopefully I'm LONG gone before it even happens.

Whether it's smartperf, flightline, or Joe Sh1t the ragman's PBS software.

 

[COOPERVANE]

Surrender to the CRJ side........

thats funny

replace all the you's you bolded with "your elected representatives and the majority of your pilot group I have run into, both in person and online"

Better?

We are our own worst enemy

 

[Nevets]

Nevets....you keep saying compromise.

We shouldn't be compromising WITH EACH OTHER!!! JUST WITH THE COMPANY

Because the LXJET compromised by letting go of line bidding with the company, it doesn't mean it is LASA pilots turn to "compromise" and "give something up" that is ASININE!! Where are you getting this ridiculous theory???

So lets just say that we told the company that we didn't want health care insurance anymore to get on board to save money. Should we then expect LXJET pilots to give up say....401K match since we "compomised" with the company?? Dont you agree that would be insane? Wouldn't it be YOUR TURN to compromise? WE did now it's your turn......right????

So why should LASA pilots give up something we fought HARD for just because you guys compromised to the company???

We aren't negotiating with each other....We are supposed to negotiate with the company!!!

Actually, the MECs have negotiated with each other and probably compromised as well. Or did you not get the JNC emails depicting in color code which sections of the contract the MECs have agreed to to negotiate with the company? The JNC and MECs had to agree on what to negotiate for. things like vacation and sick accrual, 401k matching, B fund, healthcare premium caps, etc. They need to agree on all these things before negotiating with management. The only thing the MECs have not agreed upon is which bidding system to use. So you are wrong! So yes, they do negotiate with each other.

We kept hearing that line bidding is NEVER going to happen because you guys have PBS and the company doesn't want line bidding. And despite the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of line pilots LOVING our line bidding, our MEC COMPROMISED by agreeing to PBS.

And now we find ourselves where the ASA MEC has not moved one micron from their original position and in fact has held up the merger by issuing their ultimatum to management over their intransigence.

Keep complaining guys. My point is that you are complaining to the wrong side.

Now get on board!

 

[Leroy Smith]

I'm merely pointing out the round and round/stupidity/circlejerk-ness this has all become.

Yup.

As well as how it was expected that the ERJ side should just bow down and have to surrender.

Bow down to what? How? This sounds like a persecution-complex.

The circlejerkness seems to be a result of territory marking. All the energy that could have been put into something productive has been squandered on bickering between 2 pairing-into-line-aggregators. This is Boeing vs. Airbus. Chevy vs. Ford. Fruit Loops vs Cocoa Puffs. The idea of a new-and-improved PBS algorithm or whatever is all well and good, but a total distraction from the real issues and counter-productive. I think that a good portion of ASA's initial (and current, although its become a moot point) resistance was based on this notion. Why spend the time and energy re-inventing the wheel when there is already a good (ok, call it half-decent or at least not-completely-sucking) wheel already in use and ready for improvement? My uninformed impression is that the ERJ'ers started tilting at PBS windmills because they wanted to exert control over the situation. If there is going to be PBS, its gonna be our PBS, dammit! And it has spiraled into a tragic farce from there..... For F's sake!! If losing line-bidding is such a huge concession, fight for that!! We could be convinced to join you in fighting management for that. Or at least getting some real stuff in return for the concession you feel it would be to you to go to PBS. But this make believe argument for some new software is just silly.

Silly.


To all involved: who's right or what's right?

 

[dojetdriver]

Bow down to what? How? This sounds like a persecution-complex.

No, not really. If you've ever read the mantras of various CRJ pilots that like to post the XJT message board, there was A LOT of "you guys need to get on board" as well as "get in line" and 'we saved you" type rhetoric. It's been on here, as well as APC.

And it's NOT just over the PBS issue. The ERJ side wanted as a MINIMUM the current ERJ CBA with hourly rate increases. Again, at a MINIMUM. This was seem as "unreasonable", "unwilling to work with management", whatever you choose to label it. IOW, bow down to the CRJ MEC and what the CRJ MEC thinks should be negotiated because the ERJ pilots wanted to hold onto their contract will drive the company out of business and burn the house down blah blah blah.........

The circlejerkness seems to be a result of territory marking. All the energy that could have been put into something productive has been squandered on bickering between 2 pairing-into-line-aggregators.

Agree with this, but read above to fully understand what I was getting at.

If losing line-bidding is such a huge concession, fight for that!! We could be convinced to join you in fighting management for that.

You may believe that, but that doesn't seem to be the overall feelings of the CRJ group.

Or at least getting some real stuff in return for the concession you feel it would be to you to go to PBS. But this make believe argument for some new software is just silly.

Agree, but regardless of what bidding system prevails, NONE of them will be what EITHER side knows now. It's a forgone conclusion that that company DOESN'T want line bid. It's ALSO a forgone conclusion that the company want's vacation low GONE YESTERDAY. The "give" to hold on to those would be severe.

Silly.

Agree

To all involved: who's right or what's right?

Agree. But "what's right" ISN'T the same for everybody. Some people are NOTHING but money motivated. Others are purely QOL motivated, or whatever else. Commuter vs. hub dweller, senior vs. junior, etc etc etc

 

[Leroy Smith]

Agree

Emotion and Ego seem to be big drivers of all this mess. Take the emotional component out of the equation and something meaningful could get done. Ignore the "we saved you" etc. drivel. Ignore the ones fighting for the sake of fighting. Dont feed the trolls. Letting them frame your debate or reacting to their dumbassery just weakens you. And trying to assign "blame" is the surest way to not accomplish anything.

I hope that common sense will start kicking in and some progress made. While there will probably be concessions overall, I hope there will be at least some improvements for junior folks now that juniority is no longer a short lived affliction. 5 years on reserve as an FO? 7+ year upgrades and then years of reserve, at a regional? Madness!!!

Who's right is irrelevant. What's right is everything.

 

[centralpilot]

I hope that common sense will start kicking in and some progress made. While there will probably be concessions overall, I hope there will be at least some improvements for junior folks now that juniority is no longer a short lived affliction. 5 years on reserve as an FO? 7+ year upgrades and then years of reserve, at a regional? Madness!!!

Well said. Hopefully we will see progress past this nonsense in the near future. If JoeMerchant is worried I can only hope that means something might change from the status quo.

 

[Nevets]

I think that a good portion of ASA's initial (and current, although its become a moot point) resistance was based on this notion. Why spend the time and energy re-inventing the wheel when there is already a good (ok, call it half-decent or at least not-completely-sucking) wheel already in use and ready for improvement? My uninformed impression is that the ERJ'ers started tilting at PBS windmills because they wanted to exert control over the situation. If there is going to be PBS, its gonna be our PBS, dammit! And it has spiraled into a tragic farce from there..... For F's sake!! If losing line-bidding is such a huge concession, fight for that!! We could be convinced to join you in fighting management for that. Or at least getting some real stuff in return for the concession you feel it would be to you to go to PBS. But this make believe argument for some new software is just silly.

Silly.


To all involved: who's right or what's right?

This is not a correct assumption. Thinking that we can just go with flight line and tweak it is as plausible as going with our line bidding and work rules with some tweaks to that. Either is not going to happen and that is the starting point that the XJT MEC was starting from. Flight line as is was deemed to be a concession, let alone the tweaking management would want from vacation low (the best thing about flight line). And they found an alternative that they believe will maintain status quo as far as QOL. So given that management doesn't want our line bidding and neither does your MEC, and that the company wants to gut vacation low and that that would result in a vast concession for the ERJ side, it's reasonable to think that the XJT MEC would pursue an achievable alternative that they believe would have maintain our QOL and thus be a windfall for the CRJ side.

It's not emotional, otherwise they would have also issued a line bidding or no merger ultimatum and its not a control issue as much as that they do want at the very least maintain our QOL. That's no too much to ask for in my worthless opinion.