Everything is Coming Together for Delta

[GogglesPisano]

http://seekingalpha.com/article/1061501-everything-is-coming-together-for-delta?source=yahoo

 

[bri5150]

Let's not forget what they are doing to their regional contractors. They already put 500 Comair guys on the street and are about to put 2500 Pinnacle pilots on the street. Yep, everything is coming together...

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

I don't think anyone disagrees that that DL is by far the best performing and operating airline right now. Ohh wait it's Flightinfo yeah someone will disagree.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

Let's not forget what they are doing to their regional contractors. They already put 500 Comair guys on the street and are about to put 2500 Pinnacle pilots on the street. Yep, everything is coming together...

Sad for those guys but mainline taking back flying is a good thing for the future if all professional pilots.

 

[GogglesPisano]

Let's not forget what they are doing to their regional contractors. They already put 500 Comair guys on the street and are about to put 2500 Pinnacle pilots on the street. Yep, everything is coming together...

This is unfortunate. But it's also business.

 

[RNP.15]

It will all be complete once the Alaska boyz are stapled.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Sad for those guys but mainline taking back flying is a good thing for the future if all professional pilots.

How on earth is DAL reassigning the flying to the cheapest outsourced bidder good for the career as a whole? Do you really think they are taking the flying back? All I see is them reducing the overall hourly cost of a CR9 from $150/H for the entire crew, down to $120/H. How can that be good for the profession?

 

[GogglesPisano]

How on earth is DAL reassigning the flying to the cheapest outsourced bidder good for the career as a whole? Do you really think they are taking the flying back? All I see is them reducing the overall hourly cost of a CR9 from $150/H for the entire crew, down to $120/H. How can that be good for the profession?

This latest contract shifted a large amount of formerly-regional flying back to mainline.

 

[Jetjockey]

Let's not forget what they are doing to their regional contractors. They already put 500 Comair guys on the street and are about to put 2500 Pinnacle pilots on the street. Yep, everything is coming together...

It's a business, not a welfare system. The reality is regional airlines are outsource providers. Interchangeable at the next contract, sometimes before.

Delta has a good management team right now. They are making pro-active decisions, and it seems the rest of the industry is reacting.

 

[Ops check good]

Sad for those guys but mainline taking back flying is a good thing for the future if all professional pilots.

And not good for all the other professionals that worked/work at those airlines. But as usual pilots only care about pilots.

 

[AlbieF15]

And not good for all the other professionals that worked/work at those airlines. But as usual pilots only care about pilots.

Regional airlines are not career airlines. The growth in the 90s and farming out to the regionals in the early 2000s made it look like a career there was possible, but in most cases it is not. Horizon and Skywest seem to be exceptions, but too could change.

A lot of flying left mainline to offer consumers more frequency and save the airline labor dollars. However, these days customers demand first class, wifi, etc if they are elite flyers, and the 50 seaters are on the way out. 80 buck oil higher oil is the new norm, and apparently 50 seaters don't make money at that price. Finally, the new contracts at mainline have eliminated some of the labor cost disadvantage. All these factors have meant some of the capacity passed down the last 20 years is now moving back towards mainline.

As for competitive issues, you can easily make the case Pinnacle "took" flying from Mesaba and/or Comair, or Go Jet is taking flying from TSA. The biggest threat to a regional pilot isn't a mainline pilot, its another regional pilot willing to work for less. While gut-wrentching to experience, the shrinking of the regional business and expansion of mainline flying should be something most aspiring airline pilots welcome as ultimately the best way to eventually secure a mainline airline job.

 

[Lear70]

This latest contract shifted a large amount of formerly-regional flying back to mainline.

Dumb Pilot is precisely correct.

While SOME flying is shifting back to Mainline, by dumping Comair and, if it goes down like that, PCL as well, while shifting the new CRJ-9 deliveries to the lowest bidder, they are artificially LOWERING the bar for the Regionals that people worked VERY hard to raise, while simultaneously hurting a LOT of careers.

That's never a good thing.

 

[filejw]

And not good for all the other professionals that worked/work at those airlines. But as usual pilots only care about pilots.

This isn't about pilots or other professionals but the bottom line at DAL.

 

[Lear70]

The biggest threat to a regional pilot isn't a mainline pilot, its another regional pilot willing to work for less.

That needs to be drilled into every aspiring Commercial pilot out there. Unfortunately, most of them don't care, which is why the "taking it back" approach by ALPA was doomed from the beginning.

The days of pilots of the industry standing together to raise the bar is gone. That's why I no longer am interested in union work... Most people just don't care as long as they're getting theirs.

While gut-wrentching to experience, the shrinking of the regional business and expansion of mainline flying should be something most aspiring airline pilots welcome as ultimately the best way to eventually secure a mainline airline job.

True, but the shifting of flying from one higher-cost Regional to another lower-cost Regional at the expense of those people trying to get to that Major airline job, while labeling it "the cost of doing business", is despicable. Those are people with families with no way to replace the incomes, and right before the holidays, too.

Merry Christmas. :/

 

[HA25]

The DAL management is on a roll, and doing something right for sure. They're also on a shopping spree.... refinery, an airline or two, real estate... they're a juggernaut. Have to say though, considering our tiny size by comparison, our CEO is doing a might fine job himself of running an airline.

 

[General Lee]

Dumb Pilot is precisely correct.

While SOME flying is shifting back to Mainline, by dumping Comair and, if it goes down like that, PCL as well, while shifting the new CRJ-9 deliveries to the lowest bidder, they are artificially LOWERING the bar for the Regionals that people worked VERY hard to raise, while simultaneously hurting a LOT of careers.

That's never a good thing.

You know Lear we would, in a perfect world, like NO outsourcing. Kinda like your airline now, AT and SWA. AT used to have RJs in MKE for awhile, so you know what I am talking about. But, DL goes to some cities that even a 717 can't do profitably. Dothan, AL probably couldn't take a couple per day. And, the outsourcing already started, so stopping it all together is tough to do. The "Cat is out of the bag." But, containment is the next best strategy now. That and recapturing what mainline can. Those 88 717s will do a great job at that, and reducing OVERALL numbers of RJs will help too. There will still be 125 50 seaters allowed, and there are probably cities that those planes will be perfect for. A lot of those RJ jobs were created during the BK phase at the legacies, and a lot of those pilots stayed at the Regionals because of the lack of mainline hiring. Hopefully they will get their chance now, or they can stay and fly at what remains of the Regionals.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[GogglesPisano]

Dumb Pilot is precisely correct.

While SOME flying is shifting back to Mainline, by dumping Comair and, if it goes down like that, PCL as well, while shifting the new CRJ-9 deliveries to the lowest bidder, they are artificially LOWERING the bar for the Regionals that people worked VERY hard to raise, while simultaneously hurting a LOT of careers.

That's never a good thing.

Regional contracts have always gone to the lowest bidder. The latest Delta PWA reduces this trend by bringing more flying back to mainline.

 

[Scrapdog]

Article already posted - disregard. :0

 

[titans10]

True, but the shifting of flying from one higher-cost Regional to another lower-cost Regional at the expense of those people trying to get to that Major airline job, while labeling it "the cost of doing business", is despicable. Those are people with families with no way to replace the incomes, and right before the holidays, too.

Merry Christmas. :/[/QUOTE]

Where was your outrage when you took a job flying the RJ and lowering the bar while mainline was furloughing around the holidays. It was a awesome Christmas present for the family then too. you gladly flew that RJ. you were part of the problem? Or was that different.

 

[Lear70]

Where was your outrage when you took a job flying the RJ and lowering the bar while mainline was furloughing around the holidays. It was a awesome Christmas present for the family then too. you gladly flew that RJ. you were part of the problem? Or was that different.

I only look at it differently because I didn't take the job as a new-hire F/O, but rather as an off-the-street CA with Pay and Hotel and Per Diem while in training. Wouldn't have taken it otherwise.

I also didn't get hired during the holidays, have no clue about the furloughs you're talking about. When I got hired, every Major was hiring, my company was shutting down and putting me out of a job, and while I had interviews lined up at UAL and was working with PR to get a DAL interview, I had to have something to hold me over.

Then 9/11 happened.

Not sure what you're getting at but if you're talking about working at the Regionals as an overall problem, then yes, I guess I'm guilty. Just wouldn't do it for the slave labor wages they pay new-hires.

 

[titans10]

I only look at it differently because I didn't take the job as a new-hire F/O, but rather as an off-the-street CA with Pay and Hotel and Per Diem while in training. Wouldn't have taken it otherwise.

I also didn't get hired during the holidays, have no clue about the furloughs you're talking about. When I got hired, every Major was hiring, my company was shutting down and putting me out of a job, and while I had interviews lined up at UAL and was working with PR to get a DAL interview, I had to have something to hold me over.

Then 9/11 happened.

Not sure what you're getting at but if you're talking about working at the Regionals as an overall problem, then yes, I guess I'm guilty. Just wouldn't do it for the slave labor wages they pay new-hires.

I was talking about the furloughed mainline pilots that happened around the holidays in 01. Yes you were part of the problem working at the regionals.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

I was talking about the furloughed mainline pilots that happened around the holidays in 01. Yes you were part of the problem working at the regionals.

Just a minute there buddy! The pilot group at PCL fought very hard to get those pilots jobs at PCL, it wasn't the pilots working at the regionals that voted outsourcing by margins of over 60%, it was mainline pilots. There were over 200 NWA guys worked at PCL until they started recalling or simply moved to other gigs (some went to FDX/UPS) besides the point that PCL also furloughed in 01, although for a short period because guess what? The mainline pilot group voted to increase the outsourcing and that is when PCL started getting 2 to 3 airplanes a month, I was a line trainer then and for a good couple of years I did nothing but train NWA guys.

 

[titans10]

Ok buddy. I am just tired of all this anger against mainline pilots for trying to take back flying from contract carriers. I don't remember anyone having sympathy for mainline furloughed pilots that had no vote on outsourcing flying. I could have went to PNcL. I did not want to help lower the bar as you did. Never worked for one never will.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

The bar was lowered by the ones that voted for the outsourcing, not the ones that for one reason or another, sometimes had no choice but to take those crappy jobs created by mainline senior pilots securing their conditions at the expense of eating their young. We are all guilty of not standing strong enough against what continues to happen in this industry, all that nonesense about taking flying back when DAL just ordered a whole bunch of RJ's and beating your chest with that self pedestal that you used to climb on that big horse of yours, and it is nothing but a Trojan horse filled with terms and conditions that are two decades behind where they should be, you are making a LOT less than what your counterparts are making in other first world countries, by accepting those terms, that ridiculous first year pay, accepting a job at a company that decimated the pilots retirements, you are also bearing your fair share of the degradation of this career buddy! We all have our crosses to bare, get over yourself

 

[titans10]

I am over myself. You took a job out of seniority order as a street captain. how did that help the regionals. Whatever helps you justify yourself.

 

[Bringupthebird]

The days of pilots of the industry standing together to raise the bar is gone.

When was that!!?? I don't know how long you've been in the industry, but the bellwether contracts occurred during times of full-throttle expansion by airline clamoring for market share. That hasn't happened in 30 years or so.

Pilots didn't stand up for one another. The cockpits of New York Air and Continental and some Eastern were filled by opportunistic skbs when times turned bad. Sure some were helped out, but many folks when hearing of another pilot's plight just said, "That's a shame, but on a lighter note, I'm upgrading!"

 

[Lear70]

Ok buddy. I am just tired of all this anger against mainline pilots for trying to take back flying from contract carriers. I don't remember anyone having sympathy for mainline furloughed pilots that had no vote on outsourcing flying. I could have went to PNcL. I did not want to help lower the bar as you did. Never worked for one never will.

Everybody has their opinion about it, and you're certainly entitled to yours.

My company had its flying taken by FedEx and they permanently furloughed and shut down, a street CA position at PCL was the best I could find on short notice, then 9/11 screwed us all.

This goes back to Scope EVER being given away. If it hadn't, none of this would be a problem. Additionally, you seem to think I'm arguing that mainline taking back Scope is a bad thing... I'm certainly not saying that, Scope take-back is a good thing, but that's a small percentage of the shutdown of PCL if it happens.

The problem is deliberately shutting down one company because their costs are too high then simply farming the portions of THAT flying that they like to a newer, lower-cost airline. The outsourced flying IS STILL THERE, they're just screwing over people to make it cost mainline less to farm it out.

THAT'S what I'm upset about. Hope that makes sense.

 

[Freight Dog]

The problem is deliberately shutting down one company because their costs are too high then simply farming the portions of THAT flying that they like to a newer, lower-cost airline. The outsourced flying IS STILL THERE, they're just screwing over people to make it cost mainline less to farm it out.

THAT'S what I'm upset about. Hope that makes sense.

The MBA's and bean counters wouldn't be doing their jobs if they weren't exploiting this to squeeze every last dime for the shareholders. Not personal, it's their job, and they're doing it right.

When ALPA and the collective pilot mentality moves to the 21st century, maybe things will improve... but until then... it's just sad to watch.

 

[Lear70]

The MBA's and bean counters wouldn't be doing their jobs if they weren't exploiting this to squeeze every last dime for the shareholders. Not personal, it's their job, and they're doing it right.

That kind of mentality is a large indicator of what is wrong with Corporate America and why the middle class will continue to get squeezed until there's nothing left of this Country but MBA's and bean counters at the top and entitlement people at the bottom.

That approach simply isn't sustainable in the long term. Make take a few more decades for people to figure out, but you can see it clearly from where people's standard of living was 30 years ago and where it is now in the U.S.

When ALPA and the collective pilot mentality moves to the 21st century, maybe things will improve... but until then... it's just sad to watch.

What did you have in mind?

 

[Flyer1015]

Dumb Pilot is precisely correct.

While SOME flying is shifting back to Mainline, by dumping Comair and, if it goes down like that, PCL as well, while shifting the new CRJ-9 deliveries to the lowest bidder, they are artificially LOWERING the bar for the Regionals that people worked VERY hard to raise, while simultaneously hurting a LOT of careers.

That's never a good thing.

They are just lowering it to what a regional was suppose to be in the first place: cheap contract feed. With current Airbus pilots at US Air making 125/hr and up until recently United guys making 137/hr, do you really think it's reasonable to have a 18yr CRJ payrate of 107/hr? Pinnacle outpriced itself out of the regional model. They took the industry standard 12-year pay rung/ladder and raised it to 18. All to benefit the top guys. And the latest rumor is that the new TA limits the FOs to 4 year max at about 35/hr. It doesn't take a genius to figure out who's running the show at 9E and at what seniority level the strings are being pulled.

As another guy posted, I think it's just business. Not a wellfare.