DELTA TA-Position Paper for a Yes Vote.

[charlie2]

So from looking at your profile, it was OK to outsource RJs when you flew them?

I flew a CRJ at my regional 13 years ago for one reason because I owed it to my family to transition to a higher paying position. I hated the fact that my regional was getting bigger airplanes because I wanted to go to a major but I got turned down by UAL so I did what was best for my family and I would do it again. I think scope, min fleet and min utilization rates are critical in our contracts. At my crappy company our brilliant management team has us at our min fleet. They found a loop hole in our scope and have more outsourcing than we believe our contract allows but we lost that one. They tried to cheat us by going below the min utilization rates a few years ago but we won that one...seriously we as a labor union had to force our managent team to FLY the aircraft that they have. They wanted to keep them on the ground??? Seriously? Sorry about the rant. Good luck Delta pilots.

 

[Dan Roman]

So from looking at your profile, it was OK to outsource RJs when you flew them?

Wave?...........

 

[Dan Roman]

It's funny you mention swa though. As a swapa member, I benefit far more in the short term, by you reaching parity with our rates than by a scope issue. I really can't wait until the network legacies leapfrog us completely. But I've learned that scope is a HUGE part of the pressure on wages. It's much more important than rates.

Let's see, SWA in the 80's and 90's has pilots that work much longer hours for far lower wages than legacy pilots and accept minimal retirement compared to them. The legacies compete as best they can with being undercut by creating large networks that feed each other. Now you have a problem with that business model that requires massive amount of feed and ALPA trying to preserve as many jobs as they can at mainline wages and still compete?
I agree with the concept of the larger RJ's flown by mainline pilot's you argue for. I just think you are unrealistic about the whole RJ thing.
Besides, you are SWA, I would think in markets that DAL abandoned and replaced with RJ service through a hub would actually open up opportunities for SWA to provide 737 service.

 

[Noserider76]

On behalf of the thousands of pilots who have had their job outsourced and haven't been as lucky to find a job at a major, I have zero issue speaking my mind about it.

There are many things I take issue with on this TA but I believe in the end it raises the bar for the industry. The pay rates alone are a huge increase (50%) for our peers who are wallowing around without much hope or leverage.

The scope section is a step in the right direction. It reduces the amount of outsourced jobs and increases the number of mainline jobs. True, it does it by adding more large RJs but decreases the total number of outsourced airframes and replaces the associated flying with new mainline airplanes (and jobs).

Management has made the decision they cannot fly a certain size aircraft profitably at mainline. Like it or not they make those decisions. If they can't have 76 seaters they'll fly 2 50 seaters on the route until the cows come home.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Ford & Harrison pr team alive and well on all the boards, so I'll repost from a different thread for those not yet succombed to Stockholm Syndrome:

You guys at Delta need to:

STOP listening to road shows

STOP reading Negotiater's Notepad and other memos

STOP taking your reps answers as fact.

(...and it should go without saying STOP listening to Kool-Aid from management and their concurrent scare tactics via media press releases about how everything hinges on the pilots)

Why???? The bottom line is they can put anything they want in a "notepad" or memo and tell you anything they want (and it may not even be malicious from reps, they likely have just been drinking the Kool-Aid)...and NONE of that matters a bit!

WHAT matters then? What is specifically WRITTEN in the *SIGNED contract*! Stop complaining about "legalese" and just READ what is ACTUALLY WRITTEN in your native language...I assure you, you can do this, and it is the ONLY thing that can be used for or against you, NOT a "Notepad" or hearsay.

The whole time, think? "Why is this passage vague?" or "Why does this not specify this?" "or prevent THAT?" Is this written in a way they can mess with us in even NEW ways?"

They pay this law firm MILLIONS to keep the same millions from the pilots. They have a playbook (read "Confessions of a Union Buster") and without fail pilot unions fall for the exact same tricks, over and over.

WHY is there such a rush (on the management's end)? WHY is your union SO accomodating to them? They hold all the cards, yet STILL run scared. When does "next time" become THIS time?

You all need to FORCE your union to FIGHT them (they WILL win if they are strong)...and by all means STOP FALLING RIGHT INTO THEIR HANDS by dividing up into DPA and N vs S! That is EXACTLY what they want... they want you to be divided on this TA...they win EITHER way...PILOTS, however, can only win ONE way: Sticking together with the union you have, throw the Management Buddies TO THE CURB *NOW* and get smart RADICAL people in there who realize the power of what? 10 to 12,000 PILOTS that the airline NEEDS! My GAHD if you don't have leverage NOW, WHEN do you?????

Get rid of the Kool-Aid Drinking, management LOVING double agent members of the MEC you have NOW and get the experienced FIGHTERS in there NOW in your *CURRENT UNION*! There is nothing better to them to have a divided and WEAKER union.

The whole industry is watching, if your own personal losses aren't enough motivation. Bottom line, "YES" to this embarassment equals NO WIN for pilots there and elsewhere, NO + fighters=ONLY UP!


ETA--- After googling "Ford & Harrison" (if you are sadly unfamiliar), also Google "Airlines for America" and look at the board. Management of ALL these airlines are working TOGETHER tp play ALL of you airline pilots against each other and divide and conquer in unison. Thought that was obvious but reading here makes me wonder.

Other airline pilots experienced with Mike Campbell and Ford & Harrison feel free to add how well he works with pilots and how his TAs are worked.

 

[waveflyer]

So from looking at your profile, it was OK to outsource RJs when you flew them?

First, I flew them after I was furloughed from a legacy.
2nd, former RJ pilots ARE disenfranchised by outsourcing and should be heard no matter where they came from.
A vast majority are not trying to make a regional their career-
The proliferation of rj's has made it difficult to avoid a career in the airlines without flying it.
The problem isn't the airplane. The problem is mainline pilots voting to allow their management to set up a whipsawed false market in order to violate seniority and artificially keep wages lower than they would normally be.

 

[redflyer65]

Yea Dan, those same Southwest pilots from the 80's and 90's were awarded large stock options with low, in the money strike prices all while the stock was splitting every six months. Can you say millionaires? Just with the stock options alone! And it was done using a 737 as a regional jet and not allowing any other 'feed'.

 

[PCL_128]

Yea Dan, those same Southwest pilots from the 80's and 90's were awarded large stock options with low, in the money strike prices all while the stock was splitting every six months. Can you say millionaires?

Which doesn't change the fact that they were vastly undercutting every legacy pilot in the country with their bottom of the barrel pay, retirement, and work rules. Obviously not the case anymore, but it was for decades, and pretending that it wasn't is disingenuous.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

WAVE!!!

Really? Seriously.....take your $hit to another board!! Does this TA affect you?

The only reason I have any clue of your consistent whining and crying is because people quote your sorry excuses for an argument. You didn't get hired at Delta....you have a hard-on for us.....we get it, now move along....what's that? You wish you didn't have to buy your type? I hear ya pal....

Go shine your leather jacket or pray to Gary on your mat set for Dallas Mecca at high noon Herb time, but get the F off our board and stop stirring our pot.

 

[waveflyer]

Yeah bill, this TA affects EVERY airline pilot, now and in the future, worldwide.
Or do you doubt ALPA's influence on the industry?

 

[waveflyer]

General,
There is a big difference between choosing to fly at a lower wage in lieu of stock options in a rapidly expanding company, and choosing to outsource flying, setting up a whipsaw markets to keep pilots constantly chasing seniority and higher pay- artificially keeping wages lower at said carriers.

Do any of you really believe that virgin America's wages now, and SWA's before is as damaging as outsourcing has.

If you believe that, then you are what I've said you are. Sellouts, who do NOT GET THE DAMAGE THEY DO.

It is NONE of my business what DALPA gets paid- they are responding to market pressures and the leverage they have-

It is every pilot's business when a company decides to farm out flying and make their problems other pilots problems instead of bearing the weight of competition
themselves.

Take some responsibility for your own TA. That is the subject. No other airline.

 

[Speedtape]

General,
There is a big difference between choosing to fly at a lower wage in lieu of stock options in a rapidly expanding company, and choosing to outsource flying, setting up a whipsaw markets to keep pilots constantly chasing seniority and higher pay- artificially keeping wages lower at said carriers.

Do any of you really believe that virgin America's wages now, and SWA's before is as damaging as outsourcing has.

If you believe that, then you are what I've said you are. Sellouts, who do NOT GET THE DAMAGE THEY DO.

It is NONE of my business what DALPA gets paid- they are responding to market pressures and the leverage they have-

It is every pilot's business when a company decides to farm out flying and make their problems other pilots problems instead of bearing the weight of competition
themselves.

Take some responsibility for your own TA. That is the subject. No other airline.

If you really believed your own BS and were a person of principle, then you would have never flown an outsourced RJ--no matter what the reason! Because you did, it's real hard for ANYONE to jump on your bandwagon!

If it was a perfect world, and someone could wave a magic wand, all RJs would go poof! However, there are facts and circumstances that exist, because of what "Pilots" compromised for in the past; but MORE importantly, the fact that there was an abundant Supply of pilots that allowed the camel to stick his whole carcass in the tent was the fuel for the fire that Managements needed to create the "C" scale!

Now, in the irony of the situation, the whole outsourcing issue will soon reverse, because there WILL be a pilot SUPPLY shortage in the next few years. The pilot shortage will be at the regionals, and when that happens, economics and the principle of supply and demand will take care of the outsourcing better than any Negotiating Committee could ever hope!

Hang on, Help is on it's way! You will get what you want, just not on your time line!

 

[waveflyer]

Speedtape-

(I'm still curious what POV you're arguing from- where do you work?)

We are making the same argument. 50's are going away naturally. -900's aren't.
70 new airframes can be kept at mainline and operated there, or you dilute the logic for flying any domestic airliner on the mainline certificate and contract.

I'm not asking for ALL RJ's to go poof(!) and go away-
I'm asking for all the new large rj's to be flown where they ought to be flown.

That isn't asking for the world.

 

[Dan Roman]

WAVE!!!

Really? Seriously.....take your $hit to another board!! Does this TA affect you?

The only reason I have any clue of your consistent whining and crying is because people quote your sorry excuses for an argument. You didn't get hired at Delta....you have a hard-on for us.....we get it, now move along....what's that? You wish you didn't have to buy your type? I hear ya pal....

Go shine your leather jacket or pray to Gary on your mat set for Dallas Mecca at high noon Herb time, but get the F off our board and stop stirring our pot.

I guess you've never commented on anything on the SWA boards???

 

[Dan Roman]

Yea Dan, those same Southwest pilots from the 80's and 90's were awarded large stock options with low, in the money strike prices all while the stock was splitting every six months. Can you say millionaires? Just with the stock options alone! And it was done using a 737 as a regional jet and not allowing any other 'feed'.

That's fine, they got theirs. But they undercut the rest of the profesion while not leaving anything for future generations. I.E. that type of retirement benefit is not an option for current SWA pilots. They just have a 401k that doesn't even have industry leading matching.
One point the SWA vs. DAL argument on here with regards to RJ flying is missing in comparing the two is the fact that they are two different types of airlines. RJ's feeding SWA's point to point type service obviously doesn't make sense. RJ's feeding DAL's large Intl and long distance domestic flights obviously does. It's apples and oranges comparing the two. Two completely different types of operations. SWA obviously will never be the kind of airline DAL is and DAL will never be the kind of operation SWA is, Song proved that.

 

[Dan Roman]

...and again, the worst part is, after SWA pilots worked for less to get established in the industry and the legacies have done what they can to survive, you now have SWA pilots critizing them for trying to stay competitive as best they can.

 

[waveflyer]

I'm not comparing southwest an delta or any other legacy-
You're the one Dan who refuses to understand that I flew at 5 airlines, including a legacy, long before SWA-
I am not a Swa representative and the beliefs that I express now were born of experience as a commuter feed pilot, mainline, then at a regional
My experience at Swa has nothing to do with anything and any attempt to make it something is just distraction.

But I will take on your last point-

If you can't compete bc of wage undercutting- how does it help to outsource where the entire system is about keeping wages lower than they would be in the real market.
Mgmt uses regionals to divide and conquer.