Objection to Delta's DIP financing for Pinnacle

[xjhawk]

In XJ's bankruptcy it was plain as day that NWA caused the bankruptcy (NWA continued paying Pinnacle their fees while stopped paying Mesaba forcing them into bankruptcy). But yet they were able to come in and swoop up the now cheaper and leaner airline. If that was not illegal, I am sure this is going to be swept under the rug. Delta just wants to be in a position cut 200's Time to leave before that happens and if Delta gets pushed out of DIP financing-it will be a CH 7 Time to leave

 

[Whataboutbob]

Yeah, I would say Delta lawyers are smarter then a few of us on flightinfo trying to guesstimate how this will play out. I guess what I'm saying is I agree with xjhawk that this all went down in the last bankruptcy. It was a sham and I'm guessing the lawyers are smart enough to dot their i's and cross their t's so they can do it again. I think a lot of 200's are going to be cut from the fleet eventually. It's still early in this bankruptcy process, stay tuned. It maybe a sinking ship but at my seniority the only play is to let it play out. Getting on any where else right now carries the same odds as winning the mega ball lottery. Also years 1 through 5 at the low cost carriers in the right seat is comparable to maybe not much better then top 50% at Pinnacle. It all worked out last time at Mesaba. Hate to go to JB when maybe if u stick it out at Pinnacle you might get stapled at Delta at the end of this bankruptcy haha!! Yeah right

 

[MACH-TUCK]

Yeah, I would say Delta lawyers are smarter then a few of us on flightinfo trying to guesstimate how this will play out. I guess what I'm saying is I agree with xjhawk that this all went down in the last bankruptcy. It was a sham and I'm guessing the lawyers are smart enough to dot their i's and cross their t's so they can do it again. I think a lot of 200's are going to be cut from the fleet eventually. It's still early in this bankruptcy process, stay tuned. It maybe a sinking ship but at my seniority the only play is to let it play out. Getting on any where else right now carries the same odds as winning the mega ball lottery. Also years 1 through 5 at the low cost carriers in the right seat is comparable to maybe not much better then top 50% at Pinnacle. It all worked out last time at Mesaba. Hate to go to JB when maybe if u stick it out at Pinnacle you might get stapled at Delta at the end of this bankruptcy haha!! Yeah right

I'm just a nobody flying the line and I normally try to just listen to peoples point of views while rarely expressing my own, however this whole "theory" that Delta is is going to end up owning us and we will all be stapled to the bottom of the Delta pilots seniority list is ridiculous. Its not going to happen and for someone like myself I would rather take my chances in an interview rather than wait for a ********************-ton of pilots to flow in front of me.

 

[Indy319FA]

My guess is 9E and DL management figured no one would object to DL repaying its own note at 100% because all the parties would be relieved that 9E had found DIP financing and avoid liquidation.

I don't think this will end in liquidation. My suspicion is all interested parties will come to an agreement on DIP financing and this will move on. This process is all about getting as much of your money back out of 9E as you can, and I don't see how you get more money out of Ch7 vs 11. But if one of the parties decides their best option is a liquidation then the terms of the Delta loan could be used to derail the DIP financing.

 

[Simon Says]

I agree that Chapter 7 is a very unlikely scenerio. Having DIP financing set up before entering chapter 11 is very unusual. It takes awhile for the DIP to be set up. And the fact that Menke said we couldn't find anybody to provide DIP financing might be true, but many facts are probably missing. Don't believe for a second that Pinnacle couldn't find other DIP financing if Delta is found to be the fox guarding the hen house.

Remeber this...

1. Pinnacle has cash on hand...not as much as they would like, but still has cash.
2. The main reason for the bankruptcy is the loss of money on leases of aircraft. This will be fixed shortly either through re-negotiations or give back the aircraft.
3. Another large loss of money is the jacked up way Mesaba, Colgan, and Pinnacle can jump across the fence to each company. We can negotiate that within the union...fairly easy fix.
4. Delta owes Pinnacle large sums of money.
5. Pinnacle still has cash on hand.

With these factors a DIP financier, I think, would be easy to get.

 

[Indy319FA]

I agree that Chapter 7 is a very unlikely scenerio. Having DIP financing set up before entering chapter 11 is very unusual. It takes awhile for the DIP to be set up. And the fact that Menke said we couldn't find anybody to provide DIP financing might be true, but many facts are probably missing. Don't believe for a second that Pinnacle couldn't find other DIP financing if Delta is found to be the fox guarding the hen house.

Remeber this...

1. Pinnacle has cash on hand...not as much as they would like, but still has cash.
2. The main reason for the bankruptcy is the loss of money on leases of aircraft. This will be fixed shortly either through re-negotiations or give back the aircraft.
3. Another large loss of money is the jacked up way Mesaba, Colgan, and Pinnacle can jump across the fence to each company. We can negotiate that within the union...fairly easy fix.
4. Delta owes Pinnacle large sums of money.
5. Pinnacle still has cash on hand.

With these factors a DIP financier, I think, would be easy to get.

The biggest problem Pinnacle has in finding DIP financiers is lack of assets. Delta owns all of Pinnacle's aircraft but the 900s and Q400s. DIP financiers look at what they can sell to get the money back if you don't make it out of bankruptcy. For an airline, that is usually property and aircraft. Pinnacle leases all its office space, and rents aircraft from Delta. The only aircraft they have any equity in are the 900s and Qs, and they are basically being repossessed by EDC. This was why, as an employee, I had hoped the company would be able to restructure outside of bankruptcy. I felt that if it went into bankruptcy a liquidation was very possible because I could not see how any traditional lender would give us DIP financing. The only way would be for some outside entity to help us, which would give them incredible leverage over the company. This is pretty much what has happened with Delta.

That is why this bankruptcy is so dangerous for Pinnacle. They have no assets to borrow against. That is why 20 traditional DIP financiers (if you beleive Menke) turned them down. We'll see what happens here, but if anything derails the Delta loan Pinnacle probably will not survive.

 

[Simon Says]

The biggest problem Pinnacle has in finding DIP financiers is lack of assets. Delta owns all of Pinnacle's aircraft but the 900s and Q400s. DIP financiers look at what they can sell to get the money back if you don't make it out of bankruptcy. For an airline, that is usually property and aircraft. Pinnacle leases all its office space, and rents aircraft from Delta. The only aircraft they have any equity in are the 900s and Qs, and they are basically being repossessed by EDC. This was why, as an employee, I had hoped the company would be able to restructure outside of bankruptcy. I felt that if it went into bankruptcy a liquidation was very possible because I could not see how any traditional lender would give us DIP financing. The only way would be for some outside entity to help us, which would give them incredible leverage over the company. This is pretty much what has happened with Delta.

That is why this bankruptcy is so dangerous for Pinnacle. They have no assets to borrow against. That is why 20 traditional DIP financiers (if you beleive Menke) turned them down. We'll see what happens here, but if anything derails the Delta loan Pinnacle probably will not survive.

Point very well taken.

As you can tell I came from Mesaba. I went through the bankruptcy process there and in that process we also had ZERO real assets.

But, and here it comes. Pinnacle has 1 asset that is real. Same thing that Mesaba had. A contract and a means of complying with the contract of flying that is worth hundreds of millions of dollars.

 

[ChickenSled]

3. Another large loss of money is the jacked up way Mesaba, Colgan, and Pinnacle can jump across the fence to each company. We can negotiate that within the union...fairly easy fix.

"Simon" Says the guy who already jumped across the fence with a full training cycle?

 

[Indy319FA]

Point very well taken.

As you can tell I came from Mesaba. I went through the bankruptcy process there and in that process we also had ZERO real assets.

But, and here it comes. Pinnacle has 1 asset that is real. Same thing that Mesaba had. A contract and a means of complying with the contract of flying that is worth hundreds of millions of dollars.

Granted but, correct me if I am wrong, but Mesaba was owned by NWA/Delta at the time and NWA/Delta assets could be used to guarantee the loan. Pinnacle is a different ballgame because it is an independent entity.

We'll see what happens here. Hopefully for my former coworkers and everyone involved the company will be able to get the Delta loan plan approved.

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

I agree that Chapter 7 is a very unlikely scenerio. Having DIP financing set up before entering chapter 11 is very unusual.

The Bankruptcy Laws were reformed just after the Mesaba/Delta/NWA filings. There were two important changes -

1. There had to be a reorganization plan before BK
2. DIP financing was required before filing.

I am not an expert and I certainly could be wrong but I remember a lot of talk about these two issues during our BK (XJ). Those 3 filings were strategically planned to take advantage of the older laws.

 

[xjhawk]

Granted but, correct me if I am wrong, but Mesaba was owned by NWA/Delta at the time and NWA/Delta assets could be used to guarantee the loan. Pinnacle is a different ballgame because it is an independent entity.

We'll see what happens here. Hopefully for my former coworkers and everyone involved the company will be able to get the Delta loan plan approved.

Consider yourself corrected. NWA pushed Mesaba into bankruptcy and any and all assets or cash flowed right up to the parent company (MAIR Holdings), who did not declare bankruptcy. NWA was in bankruptcy and proceeded to continue paying Pinnacle its fees while stopping its payments to Mesaba. Forcing it into bankruptcy. In that bankruptcy NWA swooped in and bought mesaba. How much did they buy mesaba for? I cannot remember but I know they got a good deal. Another thing to remember about that bankruptcy-why did Mesaba keep 1 CRJ and an entire training program if the "Saabs were our core business"? That line was bull******************** and everyone could see what was happening and there was some sort of need for the CRJ certificate. In this case, I think there is a reason Delta has told Pinnacle to keep its AQP program around too. Pinnacle did not want it, Delta did.

That being said, I think Delta is providing DIP financing and will ultimately tell Pinnacle that it will save money by parking a bunch of 200's-something delta has said it wants to do. Time to leave......

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

XJ Hawk is correct. But let me say it a little clearer - Mesaba was NOT owned by NWA when we declared bk. We were owned by MAIR Holdings. Mesaba Airlines went BK, MAIR did not. In fact MAIR provided some of the financing.

In fact something I always found funny in that situation was Mesaba sold itself to NWA, MAIR didn't sell us. That was a separate transaction. To be honest I felt NWA would buy us until they started Compass. When they announced purchasing us a lot of us were very surprised.

This situation is only getting worse not better. We'll survive but who knows what form or shape. Good luck to us all...

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

Will the Bloch award be used for the downgrades and furloughs Will many CJC Cpts keep there cpt seats since all their airframes are leaving the fleet, I have talked to some cjc guys and they say the company and union are interpreting the bloch award different. Any truth to that ?

 

[Indy319FA]

Consider yourself corrected. NWA pushed Mesaba into bankruptcy and any and all assets or cash flowed right up to the parent company (MAIR Holdings), who did not declare bankruptcy. NWA was in bankruptcy and proceeded to continue paying Pinnacle its fees while stopping its payments to Mesaba. Forcing it into bankruptcy. In that bankruptcy NWA swooped in and bought mesaba. How much did they buy mesaba for? I cannot remember but I know they got a good deal. Another thing to remember about that bankruptcy-why did Mesaba keep 1 CRJ and an entire training program if the "Saabs were our core business"? That line was bull******************** and everyone could see what was happening and there was some sort of need for the CRJ certificate. In this case, I think there is a reason Delta has told Pinnacle to keep its AQP program around too. Pinnacle did not want it, Delta did.

That being said, I think Delta is providing DIP financing and will ultimately tell Pinnacle that it will save money by parking a bunch of 200's-something delta has said it wants to do. Time to leave......

Thanks XJ. I couldn't remember the exact timing of the buyout. I knew NWA management screwed Mesaba over. Hell they screwed everybody over and now they are all in the corporate suite at Delta.

I think Delta has something in mind for 9E and it won't be good for the employees in the end. We'll see if the other creditors go along with Delta's plan for the DIP financing, and how all this plays out. Hopefully it will have minimum impact on the employees at 9E.

 

[xjhawk]

I have only heard the conference call and the unions stance. The seat slots are in effect for what....four more years. I guess in this scenario, this is the only way the block award will help me. But I do not really want to be a 200 captain in JFK. If they were slots associated with bases......now that would be nice. I would think the company would like the block award. As they now do not have to train all the colgan captains as 200 captains, then train the displaced 200 captains as crj FO's, this way, they just have to train them as FO's-the displacements will be the furloughs. How else would they think it should go? Out of seniority furloughs is the only other way that could help them more. Unless I am not seeing something. Can anyone else add something?