Aviation industry tries to undercut key change

[pilotyip]

Throw a baby or small kids in the back and there you have it. 70mph for about 8.5 hours. 3 stops for about 30 minutes each and you are at 10 hours. Thats enough for most families. You and your neighbors can drive to Wally World. I and my neighbors will fly. Maybe its something in your water.

No it is not in the water, it is something out of their wallet, if airline ticket prices go up too much, they don't purchase airline tickets. You are throwing is in things that most travelers in their spending years don't have namely babies. Just 5% of the travelers changing their minds about buying airline tickets has a tremendous impact upon airline profitability. Every airline knows this, they have explicit programs to keep the load factors up and as many seats filled as possible. You are an airline pilot you think like an airline pilot, which is airplanes are the only way to travel any distance over 300 miles. You represent a very small percentage of the american traveling public they do not make as much money as airline pilots. Remember the average Captain is in the upper 10% of all wage earners in the US. Adam Smith still rules

 

[pilotyip]

ALPA is backing a more qaulity education and lower time.

1500 hours of non challenging time while experience isn't the same....

A good example a pilot with 300 hours flying a jet with bombs off a boat.

It seems your post isn't thought out....

OMG, I agree with Rez on something. a 900 hour P-3 PPC, has a bit more experience and training than most 1500 pilots.

 

[Mamma]

No it is not in the water, it is something out of their wallet, if airline ticket prices go up too much, they don't purchase airline tickets. You are throwing is in things that most travelers in their spending years don't have namely babies. Just 5% of the travelers changing their minds about buying airline tickets has a tremendous impact upon airline profitability. Every airline knows this, they have explicit programs to keep the load factors up and as many seats filled as possible. You are an airline pilot you think like an airline pilot, which is airplanes are the only way to travel any distance over 300 miles. You represent a very small percentage of the american traveling public they do not make as much money as airline pilots. Remember the average Captain is in the upper 10% of all wage earners in the US. Adam Smith still rules

So only an airline pilot thinks driving, when about equal or less than the cost of flying is the way to go? Have at it.

Here is where you go wrong also: First you assume I am just an airline pilot and a military guy. Could it be I also had my own business and have a little experience in these matters?

Here is where your assumptions are off:

First, you talk about 5% changing their minds due to costs rising. Well, they have risen over the last two years and load factors are higher than ever. Even with bag fees, security indignities, they are still choosing to fly vs drive.

Second, how much of a price increase would cause 5% to not travel? Would the price increase offset the 5% who would not travel? Can you answer this?

Third, the consumer is not setting the ticket price. The competition is. Can you refute this? Just look at markets where competition is limited and you will see sky high ticket prices. People still travel and the airline makes a mint on the route.

Fourth, there is only so much "pie" to be had with profits. Everyone has to fight for their piece of pie. Pilots should fight for a piece of pie, but that also means someone will get a smaller piece....management? Shareholder? Customer on ticket value? I don't know. I do know we at Alaska got a pretty substantial raise and the airline is making money hand over fist with very high load factors. There was more pie to be had!

Sorry, but the facts do not support your case.

 

[pilotyip]

Third, the consumer is not setting the ticket price. The competition is. Can you refute this? Just look at markets where competition is limited and you will see sky high ticket prices. People still travel and the airline makes a mint on the route.Sorry, but the facts do not support your case.

Sure the consumer sets the tickets price, try raising your price against the competition, watch SWA change prices almost daily to make their load target. BTW More riders, the same as more people going out to eat, the economy is recovering. I have done my home work and it is cheper to drive for 4 people DTW-TPA than it is to fly. BTW Go State, 7-0 In the Big Ten

 

[jonjuan]

Still waiting, YIP...

Originally Posted by pilotyip View Post
SWA is no longer the low cost carrier, six weeks out they are tuff to beat, three weeks out, almost everyone beats them. If there is a better way to do, then for go for it, perhaps I am all wrong and the public will not will change any of their purchasing plans based upon the price of a ticket. Now if you think that pilot can be paid more without raising prices then that is for you to work out with your union and management. But remember there has to be a certain level of profitibility in order to have access to funds. It all boils down to economics. Best of luck. BTW I really do wish that you made $250K per year and your F/O $125K per year

And yet southwest pilots do AND the company continues to beat margin expectations quarter after quarter. Isn't your premise that pilot wages and company profitability are naturally and economically inversely proportional to one another?

 

[likeitis]

Who drives 600 miles a day? That is like 8 hours of driving, 900-1100 is easily done with multi drivers lots of insane people in this country, my family and neighbors to be among them

If you, your family and your neighbors are doing this to your children you are d0uchebags. So you are going to put your children through this to save what $100?

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

Dropping bombs off a boat doesnt do any more to build the decision making skills used in the airline environment than does flying boxes in the dead of night in the middle of winter.

As far as minimums, lets not forget that in the 1990s the commuters self imposed minimums were 1500hrs 2-500 multi. They did just fine and so did the university programs.

 

[IBNAV8R]

Hell. This airline pilot has an 800 mile trip coming up for the holidays. Let's explore the options:

1. Non rev over the holidays (4 eligible) Zed fares + $200 "membership" fee + 2 full fare tickets ($412/ea) - approx $1500 (6 hours to several days + hotels)

2. Buy full fare tickets $412 ea X 6 = $2472+whatever #$%^ing fees they are charging by then. ( 6 hours each way including drive to airport, checking in and dealing with the Ministry of Love)

3. Train - 3 x Superliner roomettes $1868 (30 hours each way)

4. Train - 6 Economy reserved seats $847

5. Drive - (1000 highway miles, 18 hours each way/3 drivers) Approx $330

 

[pilotyip]

If you, your family and your neighbors are doing this to your children you are d0uchebags. So you are going to put your children through this to save what $100?

see below from another pilot, it is a lot more than $100

Hell. This airline pilot has an 800 mile trip coming up for the holidays. Let's explore the options:

1. Non rev over the holidays (4 eligible) Zed fares + $200 "membership" fee + 2 full fare tickets ($412/ea) - approx $1500 (6 hours to several days + hotels)

2. Buy full fare tickets $412 ea X 6 = $2472+whatever #$%^ing fees they are charging by then. ( 6 hours each way including drive to airport, checking in and dealing with the Ministry of Love)

3. Train - 3 x Superliner roomettes $1868 (30 hours each way)

4. Train - 6 Economy reserved seats $847

5. Drive - (1000 highway miles, 18 hours each way/3 drivers) Approx $330

not to mention parking at DTW, and rental car at TPA

 

[likeitis]

see below from another pilot, it is a lot more than $100


not to mention parking at DTW, and rental car at TPA

Maybe so but doing that to children is still f'ing retarded. Shows no class and laziness. There are so many cool things to show children all over this country but I see these dip$hits all the time who only care about getting to the beach/disney/mountains/etc. as fast as they can.

 

[IBNAV8R]

Maybe so but doing that to children is still f'ing retarded. Shows no class and laziness. There are so many cool things to show children all over this country but I see these dip$hits all the time who only care about getting to the beach/disney/mountains/etc. as fast as they can.

I'm not clear on your post.

Is it the the guy who is trying to save money or is it the guy trying to get there as fast as possible who is the dip$hit?

Is it the guy who flies or drives that who is classless and lazy?

Children having to ride in a car and maybe look out the window - Oh the horror.

Or is it worse to subject them to the Theater of Security Actors?

 

[IBNAV8R]

But on topic. IMHO 1,500 hours is a bit much. A 2/3 time credit for mommy and daddy funded charm school is a bit much too. My proposal, for all it's worth:

1,000 TT, 100 Multi, 100 Inst. If they have a degree from an accredited aviation school which includes flight training from zero time to Comm, ASMEL, drop the TT requirement to 800 hours.

 

[Mamma]

Hell. This airline pilot has an 800 mile trip coming up for the holidays. Let's explore the options:

1. Non rev over the holidays (4 eligible) Zed fares + $200 "membership" fee + 2 full fare tickets ($412/ea) - approx $1500 (6 hours to several days + hotels)

2. Buy full fare tickets $412 ea X 6 = $2472+whatever #$%^ing fees they are charging by then. ( 6 hours each way including drive to airport, checking in and dealing with the Ministry of Love)

3. Train - 3 x Superliner roomettes $1868 (30 hours each way)

4. Train - 6 Economy reserved seats $847

5. Drive - (1000 highway miles, 18 hours each way/3 drivers) Approx $330

To each their own! Just where are you going that ZED fares cost $1500 for 1000 miles? And are you renting a C-182 to fly in? It should only take 2 hours to fly 1000 miles. I can get non-rev SWA tickets for $39 each way everything included. Have fun on the 36 hours of hell driving. Sounds like you have vacation time to burn. I used to do that when I was in my early 20s and we made a blast out of it but now I value my time much more and don't do that kind of thing. Plus the kids make lousy long haul passengers.

 

[likeitis]

I'm not clear on your post.

Is it the the guy who is trying to save money or is it the guy trying to get there as fast as possible who is the dip$hit?

Is it the guy who flies or drives that who is classless and lazy?

Children having to ride in a car and maybe look out the window - Oh the horror.

Or is it worse to subject them to the Theater of Security Actors?

Throwing children in a car for 15-20 hours straight just to get there and maybe save a hotel night. Wonder why we have fat, lazy children who can't remove themselves from their PSP's or IPOD's. What do you expect them to do being locked in a car for that long.

 

[IBNAV8R]

I guess my folks were just abusive when we drove cross country - without seat belts a DVD player or anything that took batteries. God forbid my folks would have expected good behavior. And no, I did NOT want him to "pull this car over."

 

[jtf]

I don't agree that the airlines can't afford to pay more. If everyone has to pay more, than the pricing power will be there to raise prices. Maybe not as many people will fly as could have, but the prices will still be low enough for most. What percentage of ticket price is labor anyway? Adding just 1 dollar to every ticket and you've got a pretty good raise for the entire cabin crew. Adding a little more would beef it up too and still keep the prices reasonable. If everyone has to pay more for labor, than everyone can charge more overall for seats (though there would still probably be some ever present price wars to try to thin out the heard).

My biggest question here is why is ALPA endorsing increased training instead of 1500 hours. I would think if they were going to actually do what is best for their members, they would endorse training plus 1500 hours. The 1500 hours will boost pay and they operate off a percentage don't they? Have they told their reasoning for this (I am gladly no longer represented by them and I am curious if this endorsement is being paid off by the airlines or schools or someone or if it just somehow benefits those in control- members be damned)? Congress passing a the law in the first place is like a gift from above to give the union members some pricing power of their own and now the same representatives who have repeatedly hosed their membership (the ALPA group I formerly worked for was hosed by ALPA National) is actively trying to take bargaining power away from themselves. If they don't have some air tight reasoning that I haven't seen, I sure hope more and more pilot groups will stand up and decertify in favor of in-house or other unions that will actually look out for them. ALPA definitely was great at one time, but their series of poor choices has brought a proud legacy down.

 

[livin'thesim]

How do you know just how many people will not buy the $99 ticket when it goes up to $105? When the airlines just made record profits do you think there might be some flexibility in ticket prices? Little Alaska just made $100 million. That is a significant premium on ticket prices and associated fees. Are you saying there is NO flexibility there? You seem to think pilot wages are the lynch-pin in ticket prices but they are not. Fuel has gone up and I don't see our planes getting less full. Why are pilots the only villains in the price of a ticket in your book?

Whether or not you agree with Yip, he is correct from an economics standpoint.

All supply/demand curves are usually smooth.

If you raise the ticket price from from 99 to 109, you will lose some passengers - that is simple fact.

The question is HOW MANY you will lose. Half a percent? Three percent?

The supply/demand curve can predict that outcome somewhat.



But that is not the whole story - since more revenue is made on the passengers that remain, total profit may increase. Or remain the same. OR decrease.


Every link in the supply/demand chain of air travel must participate in the supply/demand pricing.

There is no way to permanently insulate pilots from the variances in pricing. Right now, the US is entering a period of wage deflation. Since all pilot/company bargaining is accomplished by human beings, the pricing of the labor of those people WILL be subject to those economic laws.

You may as well get mad at the weather.

 

[kf4amu]

Whether or not you agree with Yip, he is correct from an economics standpoint.

All supply/demand curves are usually smooth.

If you raise the ticket price from from 99 to 109, you will lose some passengers - that is simple fact.

The question is HOW MANY you will lose. Half a percent? Three percent?

If all carriers do it, very little. People who pay 300 for a ticket will pay 309 without thinking.

If only one raises prices, or only one does NOT raise prices, it will not be successful...it's a commodity business, margins are thin, and most customers buy on price and schedule.

 

[pilotyip]

Whether or not you agree with Yip, he is correct from an economics standpoint.

All supply/demand curves are usually smooth.

If you raise the ticket price from from 99 to 109, you will lose some passengers - that is simple fact.

The question is HOW MANY you will lose. Half a percent? Three percent?

The supply/demand curve can predict that outcome somewhat.



But that is not the whole story - since more revenue is made on the passengers that remain, total profit may increase. Or remain the same. OR decrease.


Every link in the supply/demand chain of air travel must participate in the supply/demand pricing.

There is no way to permanently insulate pilots from the variances in pricing. Right now, the US is entering a period of wage deflation. Since all pilot/company bargaining is accomplished by human beings, the pricing of the labor of those people WILL be subject to those economic laws.

You may as well get mad at the weather.

Thank you, nicely said. As posted before I have nothing against pilots making more money, but you can not ignore the source of the money for the raise. If your company is raking in obnoxious profits, then it is time to share with all employees. I think sometimes pilots forget that other employees may also want raises if the pilot get raises. If the company is marginally profitable, then there is no room to increase costs.

 

[rigger]

Thank you, nicely said. As posted before I have nothing against pilots making more money, but you can not ignore the source of the money for the raise. If your company is raking in obnoxious profits, then it is time to share with all employees. I think sometimes pilots forget that other employees may also want raises if the pilot get raises. If the company is marginally profitable, then there is no room to increase costs.

Damn It YIP STOP IT!!!! This using common sense thing has got to stop on this forum!!! These greedy companies must be stopped they are not allowed to make any profit they must SHARE the wealth equally!