The logic of relative seniority

[Cometman]

Hose,

After reading many of your posts I have come to the conclusion that you have no intent other than to spread mis-information. Having an opinion is fine. Blatant faulty information though is a horse of a different color. I encourage everyone here to go back and read SLI arbitration precedent. Then we can have an intelligent chat based on facts instead of one man's mis-informed opinion.

Since you are an expert maybe you can answer this question:

I have a question for anybody that thinks he is an expert in this field. I would assume that both sides have to get a transition agreement with their respective company before they start on the SLI. At what point do the both sides agree if it will be handled by 1 arbritraitor or a panel of 3? Is that a choice they have ? If so, if they disagree does it go to arbitration? It seems like it can be a never ending task.

Thanks

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

I said "not likely". I thought that implied "opinion".

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

Hose,

After reading many of your posts I have come to the conclusion that you have no intent other than to spread mis-information. Having an opinion is fine. Blatant faulty information though is a horse of a different color. I encourage everyone here to go back and read SLI arbitration precedent. Then we can have an intelligent chat based on facts instead of one man's mis-informed opinion.

I said "not likely". I thought that implied "opinion". All of my posts carry the opinion that we will likely find something fair for all of us. No one needs to get hosed here.

 

[FlyinGuy]

Ty, Your new rates will not apply to the decision. There was a snapshot taken the day of the merger and everything will be based on that. SWA might get a raise in a few days too, but that will not be included either.

 

[Just thinking]

Southwest Airlines reached a tentative agreement Thursday with its 5,800 pilots represented by the Southwest Airlines Pilots Assn. on switching some future 737-700 deliveries to -800s.
According to SWAPA, the agreement includes "a single pay rate for the 737, profitability-based raise added to the hard 2% raise in 2011, a contract extension with an amendable date extended to September 2012, and a profitability-based raise in 2012."

Has to go to vote. I am certain that the international portion of the future expansion will hinge dramatically on the 800's. This will be conveyed by your union leadership. You will have a pay raise without taking a single delivery of an 800. OK to pay Southwest pilots the same rate for 122/137 seats but can't pay the same for an aircraft that can be configured with 120-125?????? The 737-800 seats 162 passengers in a typical two-class layout, or up to 189 in one class.

For arguments sake lets meet in the middle on the 800 seating and make it 175 seats. More than a 50 seat difference from the 500 and almost 40 from the 300. You want to penalize the 717 crews because they have between (-7 to +3) seats depending on configuration for the 737-500 or (-20 to -12) seats compared to the 737-300. Take the rate and divide it by the seats on the 717 and the 737 (300/500/700/800). Now you have a rate that is dependant upon seat capacity and will pay accordingly. You can further differentiate the pay when it comes to overwater or international overrides. Does a 717 crew have LESS liability than a 735 crew? Does a 735 crew have LESS liability than a 737 crew?

You should be careful about cutting out crews because they carry less pax.... it could be used against you in future negotiations by the company.... if it is good for the goose it is good for the gander. I woud venture to bet that the 500's will be around a bit longer than what was previously expected. Expansion will come pretty quick when all of the markets start to interconnect.

 

[FO 4 Life]

I'll throw something in as an outsider since I rode on a SWA plane yesterday and the senior captain doesn't think anything will affect him.

Everyone on here keeps talking about pay. If you look at arbitrators decisions regarding seniority lists, a lot of it has to do with career expectations. Not so much pay, but that is part of it.

Career expectations for both are 737 captain. That's it. The real fly in the ointment I believe, is that an arbitrator may look at the fact Airtran sort of does international. Is that a higher career expectation?

 

[shootr]

You want to penalize the 717 crews...

No, I do not. But management might.

 

[OK3]

Southwest Airlines reached a tentative agreement Thursday with its 5,800 pilots represented by the Southwest Airlines Pilots Assn. on switching some future 737-700 deliveries to -800s.
According to SWAPA, the agreement includes "a single pay rate for the 737, profitability-based raise added to the hard 2% raise in 2011, a contract extension with an amendable date extended to September 2012, and a profitability-based raise in 2012."

Has to go to vote. I am certain that the international portion of the future expansion will hinge dramatically on the 800's. This will be conveyed by your union leadership. You will have a pay raise without taking a single delivery of an 800. OK to pay Southwest pilots the same rate for 122/137 seats but can't pay the same for an aircraft that can be configured with 120-125?????? The 737-800 seats 162 passengers in a typical two-class layout, or up to 189 in one class.


For arguments sake lets meet in the middle on the 800 seating and make it 175 seats. More than a 50 seat difference from the 500 and almost 40 from the 300. You want to penalize the 717 crews because they have between (-7 to +3) seats depending on configuration for the 737-500 or (-20 to -12) seats compared to the 737-300. Take the rate and divide it by the seats on the 717 and the 737 (300/500/700/800). Now you have a rate that is dependant upon seat capacity and will pay accordingly. You can further differentiate the pay when it comes to overwater or international overrides. Does a 717 crew have LESS liability than a 735 crew? Does a 735 crew have LESS liability than a 737 crew?

You should be careful about cutting out crews because they carry less pax.... it could be used against you in future negotiations by the company.... if it is good for the goose it is good for the gander. I woud venture to bet that the 500's will be around a bit longer than what was previously expected. Expansion will come pretty quick when all of the markets start to interconnect.

I did not mean to imply that I "want" a lower pay rate for anything. I am simply bringing up the possibility that this may be an issue. We have a very small number of 737-500s (around 25 or 5% of the fleet). The company so far has had little incentive to fight us over another, lower pay scale for smaller equipment. Bringing on almost 100 smaller airframes is going to be another matter. Compound this with the different economics of 717 airframe and I think the company is going to want to pay us less to fly it. Not emotional, just possible.

 

[scoreboardII]

Not emotional, just possible.

You mean probable, as AT now has a second payscale for 717, right?

 

[instructordude]

I'll throw something in as an outsider since I rode on a SWA plane yesterday and the senior captain doesn't think anything will affect him.

Everyone on here keeps talking about pay. If you look at arbitrators decisions regarding seniority lists, a lot of it has to do with career expectations. Not so much pay, but that is part of it.

Career expectations for both are 737 captain. That's it. The real fly in the ointment I believe, is that an arbitrator may look at the fact Airtran sort of does international. Is that a higher career expectation?

Career expectation is EVERYTHING. Capt is the pinnacle of a career and this is why Airtran pilots will maintain threre CApt positions. Anything else is an ridicuolous and against federal law as mandated by the McCain/Allegeney Act. Get use to it. It's federal law.

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

I'll throw something in as an outsider since I rode on a SWA plane yesterday and the senior captain doesn't think anything will affect him.

Everyone on here keeps talking about pay. If you look at arbitrators decisions regarding seniority lists, a lot of it has to do with career expectations. Not so much pay, but that is part of it.

Career expectations for both are 737 captain. That's it. The real fly in the ointment I believe, is that an arbitrator may look at the fact Airtran sort of does international. Is that a higher career expectation?

Career expectation and entire compensation package are synonymous. (that means the "the same thing") Where you go and what seat you do it from is irrelevant. In my opinion, of course. Id rather make 160k as an F.O. than 140k as a captain. But thats just me.

Once again, im sure we'll find something good for us all.

 

[Muppets]

It is not an exaggeration really. it is device to show that the logic of relative seniority does not *always* make sense. Sometimes it does, and that is why in my first post I said that this logic assumes all pilot jobs are equal. We all know this is not the case. What an arbitrator will decide is whether or not a SWA job is equal to an Airtran job, pre acquisition.

General Lee, what you said makes sense for that merger I think there are some significant differences between your merger and our acquisition. A/M and B/M do not really set a particular way to integrate lists, only a mechanism. Why do you think that is? I think it is because the authors realized that all mergers/acquisitions are different. If the authors of the legislation thought relative was the only fair way they would have mandated it; but they did not.

I am not an expert on arbitration but I *think* the arbitrator is not bound by precedent like a judge would be. Other arbitrations may be a guide, but to think the one that will likely decide this issue will go in lock step with the others is a mistake.

I am not trying to be a jerk, the pilots of Airtran are just fighting for the best deal they can get and so are the pilots of SWA. When it is over we will all get along. I have no desire to live out the US Air/ AW disaster and either do any of the guys I know.

Fine...tell ya what, next time I have a MDW turn I will bring over one of my 250 pound Atlanta Flight Attendants and you can work off some of your anger in a broom closet. That sounds like one hell of a deal. Dont forget, you won Lord Stanley's Cup....you have plenty to be happy about.

 

[OK3]

Fine...tell ya what, next time I have a MDW turn I will bring over one of my 250 pound Atlanta Flight Attendants and you can work off some of your anger in a broom closet. That sounds like one hell of a deal. Dont forget, you won Lord Stanley's Cup....you have plenty to be happy about.

We did win the cup, but we sent half out team to Atlanta........wait a minute I think I see a conspiracy here. Maybe the Hawks are going to merge with the Thrashers.

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

Question for Ty Webb and AFCitrus,

Hypothetical situation: The SWA deal falls through, AirTran makes a successful bid for Virgin America.

2008 hire VA captain is placed on the AirTran captain list above a 2004 hire AirTran FO.

A 2007 hire VA captain is placed on the AirTran Captain list above a 1993 hire AirTran Captain.

Are y'all cool with this situation? Id like to hear an AirTran FOs perspective as well.

 

[General Lee]

With respect, something does change for that FO in this case if he works for SWA. The missing factor is the age of the pilots inserted above him (AAI is a younger group). An argument can be made that the new bigger company will also produce fewer upgrade because upgrades for growth are twice as many as for attrition, and growing beyond 700 aircraft will be difficult to do for a number of reasons. This is not as clear cut an argument though.

Another factor not included is the 717s that AAI brings to the transaction. This aircraft does not have a pay rate at SWA yet. It may in fact pay less than the 737. If that is the case a large number of the jobs being brought over are not worth as much to SWA pilots, further damaging a current SWA pilot.

OK3,

Hey PAL, I hope your day is going well today. Anyway, I think you underestimate what AT brings to the table. They bring slots at airports you do not have access to. (DCA, ATL) They bring access to the largest and busiest airport in the world (ATL). They give you a lot more slots and gates at LGA. Those are things you cannot have otherwise right now. Next, they give you access to a lot more cities all over the East, and INTL flying. That INTL flying is something your own management doesn't really trust you guys with currently (as seen with INTL codeshares that are now bust). All of that is significant. Also, a combination of the two of you gets rid of one of you (AT) which means one less LCC competitor--another plus for SWA.

As far as younger AT pilots upgrading before you, that is too bad, but that really means nothing to an arbitrator. That happened in both the US/AWA merger and the DL/NWA merger. The arbitrator(s) will decide what is fair, and they are a "neutral" by nature, so they will listen to the facts presented by the attornies, and then make a decison, and then write a long brief about their decision. So, you can read all about it and see the reasoning. After that point, you can blame the arbitrator(s), and your lawyers.

Then you bring up the 717. The DC9 at NWA didn't have a DL payrate initially, but it was all done in the Joint Contract, which is done PRIOR to the SLI. Everyone learned with the USAir/AWA fiasco that you NEED to do a joint contract first. Even now the USAir East guys (wheenies) are paid less than the AWA guys, on the same equipment. They never did a joint contract, and now there is chaos. The reason you do a joint contract first is because it can dampen the sting of the eventual SLI. But, that Joint Contract will mainly help the AT guys, primarily because they are paid a lot less. The NWA pilots gave up their pay in BK to keep their pensions intact, and that was opposite at DL. Well, the NWA guys KEPT their pensions, and also got a 30% raise PER HOUR for pay, and more did even better when they upgraded to a larger plane that paid even more than they were making before. Even with all of that, the arbitrators looked at the cases brought by each attorney, and then made a ruling. That is the way it goes. The 717 btw, is about the same size as a 737-500. How much does the 737-500 pay compared to the 737-700 at SWA? Expect the 717 to make the same.

Regardless, I think ALL OF YOU ARE FANTASTIC PEOPLE. REALLY, JUST A SWELL BUNCH OF JOES. YOU REALLY ARE ALL TOP GUNS IN MY BOOK. And, if you have time today, try to do something special or nice for someone, like buying that old guy on the bus a stick of deodorant, because really, his old lady wants him to smell better. See ya!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[St. Nic]

OK3, Date of Hire solves everything. Senior people stay senior and junior people stay junior. The concept is so simple that I *thought* even a Deltoid could get it, but I guess I was wrong!

 

[General Lee]

Question for Ty Webb and AFCitrus,

Hypothetical situation: The SWA deal falls through, AirTran makes a successful bid for Virgin America.

2008 hire VA captain is placed on the AirTran captain list above a 2004 hire AirTran FO.

A 2007 hire VA captain is placed on the AirTran Captain list above a 1993 hire AirTran Captain.

Are y'all cool with this situation? Id like to hear an AirTran FOs perspective as well.

I am neither of those guys, but I wanted to be NUMBER 1 at a combined DL and NWA, but the arbitrators didn't listen to me. Everyone wants to have as much seniority as possible, because it controls a lot in your career. It DOESN'T MATTER WHAT PEOPLE THINK IS FAIR, rather it MATTERS WHAT THE ARBITRATORS THINK IS FAIR, and that is controlled by what your lawyers say. THAT WILL BE IT. The arbitrators will look at the FACTS, compare the airlines (which is older, what type of operation--LCC vs legacy etc), look at airplane types (USAir East got top 500 guys because they had INTL widebodies and AWA did not), and go from there. Your scenario just doesn't cut it. I beleive some SWA pilots (maybe 200-300) will be at the top by themselves because SWA is an older airline, but then it will go relative from there. YOU JUST CAN'T BE MAKING UP SCENARIOS MY BROTHERS! PEACE AND LOVE. JUST LET THE ARBITRATORS HANDLE IT via your lawyers.

And regardless, YOU GUYS ARE ALL FANTASTIC. JUST REALLY GROOVY PEOPLE. If you have a chance tonight, try to do something nice for someone or something, like telling your Mother-N-law that she looks cute, like a Janet Nopalitano type cute.... See ya!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

OK3, Date of Hire solves everything. Senior people stay senior and junior people stay junior. The concept is so simple that I *thought* even a Deltoid could get it, but I guess I was wrong!

You don't have to convince a "Deltoid", but rather arbitrators, and NONE of them have ruled that way. LOOKS LIKE YOU ARE WRONG. Try to digest that, with a bit of CROW. If you are a USAir Eastie, then I know why you can't see it that way. Arbitration will be the way EVERY new merger goes, and since a staple is illegal now, you will have to accept that. And, someday YOU WILL.

Have a great one!

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[get2flyin]

OK3, Date of Hire solves everything. Senior people stay senior and junior people stay junior. The concept is so simple that I *thought* even a Deltoid could get it, but I guess I was wrong!

Oh, Nicky. You still don't understand the concept that seniority only applies within ones own company. It looks like you are very possibly destined to be one of those guys who spends his entire career angry, thinking about how the world wronged him. Good news: You can now fly medicated. Best of luck in the remainder of your career.

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

And regardless, YOU GUYS ARE ALL FANTASTIC. JUST REALLY GROOVY PEOPLE. If you have a chance tonight, try to do something nice for someone or something, like telling your Mother-N-law that she looks cute, like a Janet Nopalitano type cute.... See ya!


Bye Bye--General Lee

The new General is actually pretty damn funny.