AirTran Strike Vote...98 percent say YES!

[radarlove]

Where did I say the shareholders deserved it? I didn't. I just mentioned that the original poster thought that the raise would be "free", all the airline would have to do is raise ticket prices.

Actually, fair or not, the raise is going to come out of someone else's pocket, and unless your upper management is going to take enough of a pay cut to pay your raises, then the pocket it's coming out of is the shareholders.

But...you knew that already, right?

 

[no1pilot2000]

If you're not happy at AirTran, Delta is now hiring pilots. From the comments I have read on that thread, the pilots who posted comments who fly for Delta think it's a good place to work.

 

[Wesb737fo]

Where did I say the shareholders deserved it? I didn't. I just mentioned that the original poster thought that the raise would be "free", all the airline would have to do is raise ticket prices.

Actually, fair or not, the raise is going to come out of someone else's pocket, and unless your upper management is going to take enough of a pay cut to pay your raises, then the pocket it's coming out of is the shareholders.

But...you knew that already, right?

I don't even know where to begin with this one......geez...Let me start with this.
I DON'T CARE WHERE THE MONEY COMES FROM! ARGUING ABOUT WHERE IT COMES FROM IS POINTLESS. I DON'T DO REVENUE MANAGEMENT, I DO THE FLYING. WHERE THEY DIG UP THE MONEY MATTERS NOT. NINE YEARS ON ONE CONTRACT IS LONG ENOUGH!...FIVE YEARS NEGOTIATING THIS ONE IS LONG ENOUGH!... THEY CAN STFU AND PAY ME .....NOW!

But...YOU knew THAT already....right?

 

[GuppyWN]

If you're not happy at AirTran, Delta is now hiring pilots. From the comments I have read on that thread, the pilots who posted comments who fly for Delta think it's a good place to work.

Yeah! You should always just quit instead of trying to improve your job!

Gup

p.s. nopilot, management LOVES guys like you. You're easy. It's the guys that care that are a tough nut to crack.

 

[Lear70]

Actually, fair or not, the raise is going to come out of someone else's pocket, and unless your upper management is going to take enough of a pay cut to pay your raises, then the pocket it's coming out of is the shareholders.

Again... no... not really, no.

Again, Econ 101: costs associated with producing a product are passed on to the consumers of the product in the form of increases in said product's price over time.

Granted, one cannot simply raise fares overnight but, as I mentioned before, AAI has been slowly and quietly raising fares in very small increments over the last year and a half. That increase has shown up on the quarterly reports as increased net profit which, yes, does get passed onto the share holders, for a very brief time, but then that additional income is used to pay for the increased costs that come with a new contract, as well as fare increases in the future as well.

That's not "taking money from the shareholders"; it was never their money to begin with, they just happened to benefit from the fare increases that were eventually slated to cover increased costs of producing this product.

Everything goes up in cost, generally speaking, over time. The trick is to find that middle ground where costs go up a reasonable amount that's fair to the employee group concerned (in this case, the pilots), while simultaneously not requiring such a large increase in fare as to damage AirTran's market share of customers.

With as long as ALPA's been doing this, I trust them to find that "sweet spot" in this case. YMMV.

 

[Ty Webb]

Different decade, same stupidity

If you're not happy at AirTran, Delta is now hiring pilots. From the comments I have read on that thread, the pilots who posted comments who fly for Delta think it's a good place to work.

After 13 years on Flightinfo, all I am now seeing a whole new crop of idiots coming up through the ranks . . . . nothing has changed, at least in that regard.:smash:

 

[400ADude]

After 13 years on Flightinfo, all I am now seeing a whole new crop of idiots coming up through the ranks . . . . nothing has changed, at least in that regard.:smash:

You are the senior ranking idiot then.

 

[no1pilot2000]

Relax people. I was using something called..... sarcasm and it's used by many people on this web site all the time. I think it's great that AirTran pilots stood their ground. AT is a great airline and I hope that they get what they richly deserve... better pay and hopefully one day, a changing of the guard by getting better management.

Have a nice day

 

[Ty Webb]

And I hope what 400Ahole gets what he richly deserves . . . . a nice case of hemorrhoids. . . . . . and a new jailhouse hubby.

 

[CoolSidePillow]

Alaska afforded it. SWA afforded it. Jetblue afforded it. Even Delta guys got some money with the merger and they have been bleeding money. They can get the money for us by being more efficient with their operation. When reserve pilots are timing out 30/7 and they are delaying and even cancelling flights because of poor scheduling practices that equates to higher costs. They can afford to pay more but executive bonuses are in part calculated on money they do not spend that is why there hasnt been a contract. AAI stock has been stagnant for years as the rest of the industry has. If shareholders dont want to own stock they can sell it or not buy it. We have been making money for the most part for years and the stock hasnt really gone up. It was higher when they tried to buy Midwest and save that company from the scum that is Republic. Plus, a well compensated and fairly treated workforce creates profits. Motivation is powerful. SWA has a crappy product but they make money. It is like a damn cult over there. Spreadsheet management doesnt work. It never has. I would rather have some guy that keeps a small company profitable in this country than some idiot with an MBA.

 

[slick1]

I hope that management at ALL airlines see that the tide has turned.

They should no longer be content to hide behind the restrictions and confinements of the R.L.A. and an complicit N.L.R.B.

Go get 'em, AirTran pilots!

 

[radarlove]

Again... no... not really, no.

Again, Econ 101: costs associated with producing a product are passed on to the consumers of the product in the form of increases in said product's price over time.

Granted, one cannot simply raise fares overnight but, as I mentioned before, AAI has been slowly and quietly raising fares in very small increments over the last year and a half. That increase has shown up on the quarterly reports as increased net profit which, yes, does get passed onto the share holders, for a very brief time, but then that additional income is used to pay for the increased costs that come with a new contract, as well as fare increases in the future as well.

That's not "taking money from the shareholders"; it was never their money to begin with, they just happened to benefit from the fare increases that were eventually slated to cover increased costs of producing this product.

Everything goes up in cost, generally speaking, over time. The trick is to find that middle ground where costs go up a reasonable amount that's fair to the employee group concerned (in this case, the pilots), while simultaneously not requiring such a large increase in fare as to damage AirTran's market share of customers.

With as long as ALPA's been doing this, I trust them to find that "sweet spot" in this case. YMMV.

So, you got a "C" in econ?

 

[slaquer5]

Alaska afforded it. SWA afforded it. Jetblue afforded it. Even Delta guys got some money with the merger and they have been bleeding money. They can get the money for us by being more efficient with their operation. When reserve pilots are timing out 30/7 and they are delaying and even cancelling flights because of poor scheduling practices that equates to higher costs. They can afford to pay more but executive bonuses are in part calculated on money they do not spend that is why there hasnt been a contract. AAI stock has been stagnant for years as the rest of the industry has. If shareholders dont want to own stock they can sell it or not buy it. We have been making money for the most part for years and the stock hasnt really gone up. It was higher when they tried to buy Midwest and save that company from the scum that is Republic. Plus, a well compensated and fairly treated workforce creates profits. Motivation is powerful. SWA has a crappy product but they make money. It is like a damn cult over there. Spreadsheet management doesnt work. It never has. I would rather have some guy that keeps a small company profitable in this country than some idiot with an MBA.

Thanks for reassuring of how bad AT SWA merger would be. I wish you the best on your own and hope to never see you in a SWA uniform.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

And I hope what 400Ahole gets what he richly deserves . . . . a nice case of hemorrhoids. . . . . . and a new jailhouse hubby.

Now that's funny!:laugh:

 

[Ty Webb]

We'll do just fine, thanks, and I hope to never see me in a SWA uniform, either.

Thanks for reassuring of how bad AT SWA merger would be. I wish you the best on your own and hope to never see you in a SWA uniform.

 

[Lear70]

Well, I don't know about a "Crappy" product, although it's certainly "no-frills"... I fly Southwest as a revenue passenger 2-3 times a month on average and it's always a pleasant experience, cattle-call boarding aside...

Have to say, best product award goes to jetBlue domestically. Very rare to run into an unfriendly gate agent or crew, planes are nice, TV's are awesome if you have kids. Wish they would come back to BNA...

Worst product? Mesa/Freedom/Expressjet/insertRJcarriernamehere. I absolutely DETEST flying 2 1/2 hours in a 50- or 70- seat RJ elbow to elbow in that ridiculous seat pitch the RJ's have. The only way I'll do it is if there's NO other way to get where I need to go. I'd rather take two extra legs on a 737 or Airbus than have to ride in an RJ more than an hour...

All that aside, and even though I'd bet my next paycheck that no SWA/AT merger will happen, I don't think there'd be that big of a clash.

YMMV

 

[CoolSidePillow]

Thanks for reassuring of how bad AT SWA merger would be. I wish you the best on your own and hope to never see you in a SWA uniform.

Most mergers are bad. At least for many of the employees. I have flown on SWA many times as a revenue passenger and I do not like what they do. That is my opinion. I wasnt calling it a cult in a bad way. I was making an observation based on the motivation of the employees and using that as an analogy. I am a very good pilot and a very good employee no matter what the logo on the tail is and if I were a SWA employee I would be a good one. Unless you personally started the airline and it has your name on it you have no need to take offense. It is just a job. It doesnt define the person.

 

[ATLplt]

It is just a job. It doesnt define the person.

I wish more folks realized that. It's hard getting that point across to the chest thumpers on FI. We're all professional aviators. At some point you have to let this "my airline is better than yours" shizz go. But what the hell do I know...

I wonder what would happen if we all ACTUALLY supported each other...you know, for the profession, instead of our individual goals?

...what? I'm serious! Stop laughing out loud people!

 

[K-Mart]

Are you guys going to strike or not?

 

[GuppyWN]

And kill their golden ticket?

Gup

 

[Lear70]

Are you guys going to strike or not?

Don't know... it's certainly a "wrinkle" in the game plan.

We meet with the company for negotiations again with the NMB likely a week from Monday or Tuesday (when we WERE, more than likely, going to request to be released to strike). The company is NOW saying, in the interest of having a stable company to merge, that they would like to "bridge the divide" and finish the contract.

Since the only things remaining are financial, it's completely up to the company. I'm sure our MEC is getting feedback from a few people saying to "give a little", but not only is the mainline sentiment to get something we can live with "just in case" this doesn't work out, but further, the problem is they really can't suddenly cave on our requirements; the Wilson Polling data was very specific on what the minimum signable contract levels are.

We're also dealing with a Lame Duck management team. Per the T&C's of the acquisition paperwork, unless required by the NMB, the company may not sign any material change to our CBA without the express approval of the SWA BoD or Gary Kelly. Which means... interestingly enough... Southwest now controls our contract negotiations, albeit from behind the scenes.

So what remains to be seen next week is whether our management has been given a directive to "get it done", or whether the directive is "stall if you can" and gamble we won't get militant. Personally, I wouldn't choose Option B, simply because it would become very obvious VERY quickly to our pilots just exactly WHERE those marching orders are coming from...

For that reason alone, I'm actually cautiously optimistic about next week's negotiating session. There are literally BILLIONS of dollars at stake for what equates to very little over the course of the next year to 18 months as we transition into the Southwest contract structure and pay rates. There's no REASONABLE excuse not to give us a fair contract to live under for the year or two it will take to get this all done.

Will we strike if NOT given a reasonable contract? Not before DOCC. After that,,, I make no promises.

 

[K-Mart]

Very interesting that Kelly controls the negotiations. I had a feeling about this. Thanks for the info. BIG PIECE OF THE PUZZLE. I would not be suprised if Kelly gave you a good raise. I guess he already did.

 

[Lear70]

Very interesting that Kelly controls the negotiations. I had a feeling about this. Thanks for the info. BIG PIECE OF THE PUZZLE. I would not be suprised if Kelly gave you a good raise. I guess he already did.

Believe it when you're cashing the check, my friend.

Like I said, "cautiously optimistic". Until then, continuing to hope for the best, but plan for the worst, like the rest of us. Aviation, she is a fickle task master. You never know what she's gonna throw at you.

 

[Richard Gozinya]

There are literally BILLIONS of dollars at stake for what equates to very little over the course of the next year to 18 months as we transition into the Southwest contract structure and pay rates

Question...........

Is a retro/ signing bonus on the table? If so, will ALPA be looking to get their "fair share"? I haven't heard much on this subject. I do however remember the uproar at a previous employer when the signing bonus pot was set for the planned distribution.

I bet ALPA is looking to make sure they cash in on every penny they can get their nappy lil hands on.

Dick

 

[puff daddy mac]

And kill their golden ticket?

Gup

So you're saying you have this "Golden Ticket"?

 

[Ty Webb]

Funny, Lear, I didn't read that clause the same as you . . . . It looked to me like it said that they would make no changes, except those required by good faith negotiations under the RLA, or something to that effect. I will have to reread that after a little more coffee.

 

[Jim Smyth]

I dont have time to read through all the threads but my recommendation to the AirTran guys is do your homework. Southwest is a stand up company and will treat you right in time. Re-Read, it takes time to work stuff out. Work with them and dont expect instant rewards/pay increases! Research how Southwest handled Muse Air and TranStar Merger/Acquisition or lack there of. If you put your pride in front of common sense you may not like the outcome. At the time Herb was running the show. He was a man of his word. I assume Gary is a clone of Herbs.

 

[K-Mart]

Lear
I'll be an evil person here and say I believe Kelly will do it because he thinks it will bring your wages up to SWA wages. From there the SLI will be a lot easier since your wages would be comparable. Wouldn't even be shocked if the SWA Union President knew this.

Best of luck to everyone!

 

[texman]

K mart,

Good point, but it won't happen. Airtran is making money. From a biz stand point why would they do that. Until the pilots integrate to our network and route structure then the cost will be equal, to give a pay bump per our contract.

 

[Lear70]

Funny, Lear, I didn't read that clause the same as you . . . . It looked to me like it said that they would make no changes, except those required by good faith negotiations under the RLA, or something to that effect. I will have to reread that after a little more coffee.

I read that to mean that they are allowed to continue to meet with us as directed by the NMB and to follow NMB instructions, but the NMB can't REQUIRE the company come to an agreement.

So, since good-faith negotiations don't REQUIRE the company to come to an agreement, and the company can't make any changes otherwise, it would basically fall into Gary Kelly's lap to approve any CBA.

This is pretty standard stuff when it comes to the business world in general, as I'm sure you're familiar with. A company buys another company and ties that company up from entering into any new contracts until the DOCC. Otherwise you'd have a small trucking company contracting to their brother-in-law to supply all their gas at full retail prices for a 10-year contract right after the paperwork was signed and there'd be nothing the purchasing company could do about it.

Lear
I'll be an evil person here and say I believe Kelly will do it because he thinks it will bring your wages up to SWA wages. From there the SLI will be a lot easier since your wages would be comparable. Wouldn't even be shocked if the SWA Union President knew this.

Best of luck to everyone!

I don't know if they'll agree to bring us up to SWA wages, since we weren't even asking for those (closer to ALA/HAL + 2%), but I wouldn't be a BIT surprised if the company came back with a fairly reasonable offer.

Time will tell. We meet with the company up at the NMB in 2 weeks and we'll know a lot more after that 2 or 3 day session... Until then, not worrying about it, as there's nothing I can do about it, just sitting back and enjoying life.