Logging Piaggio Time

[BeenThereDoneIt]

What is the correct way to log Piaggio time as an SIC? As SIC time or as PIC time?

 

[brokeflyer]

What is the correct way to log Piaggio time as an SIC? As SIC time or as PIC time?

you answered it within your own question chuck.

if you're an SIC then you log as SIC......only if you are a required crewmember for the flight, e.g. far 135 and 2 pilots needed.

 

[guido411]

Broke is right but I'll add:

You COULD legally log PIC even in the right seat if you're qualified to act as PIC (multi-comm, current and typed if req) and are the sole manipulator of the controls. That's even if the company designates you at the SIC but you would have a hard time explaining that as quality PIC time to a potential employer looking to hire a Captain.

If you're in the right seat and the regs don't require an SIC it's pretty much safety pilot time IMHO.

 

[BoilerUP]

You COULD legally log PIC even in the right seat if you're qualified to act as PIC (multi-comm, current and typed if req) and are the sole manipulator of the controls. That's even if the company designates you at the SIC but you would have a hard time explaining that as quality PIC time to a potential employer looking to hire a Captain.

Part 91 I'd say sure, that's legal but not a very wise career decision...but can one really log it that way legally when in the employ of an air carrier as an SIC?

 

[Flex-ible]

Part 91 I'd say sure, that's legal but not a very wise career decision...but can one really log it that way legally when in the employ of an air carrier as an SIC?

YES. The FAA has issued letters of clarification to several (mostly bottom tier) carriers authorizing this. HOWEVER, when applying for your top tier job, I would certainly point out quickly that my multi PIC time includes X hours as sole manipulator on flights where I was otherwise the SIC.

 

[guido411]

Part 91 I'd say sure, that's legal but not a very wise career decision...but can one really log it that way legally when in the employ of an air carrier as an SIC?

61.51 rule for LOGGING flight time still applies even if flying under 135 or 121. Career decision, I don't think it's unwise to log time you flew an airplane, would just have to be up front with potential employer.

What I'm a little unsure of: Say you're operating the Piaggio (or other single pilot airplane) under Part 135 and have autohorization to use an autopilot in lieu of SIC. The operator decides to throw a warm (but rated) body in the right seat to appease the pax. What can that pilot log if he isn't PF?

 

[brokeflyer]

What I'm a little unsure of: Say you're operating the Piaggio (or other single pilot airplane) under Part 135 and have autohorization to use an autopilot in lieu of SIC. The operator decides to throw a warm (but rated) body in the right seat to appease the pax. What can that pilot log if he isn't PF?

he can't log anything unless he is checked IAW part 135. If he didnt take at least a 135 SIC check then he is just a passenger. The only time the warm body would be able to log is sole manipulator on a empty leg.

 

[rettofly]

YES. The FAA has issued letters of clarification to several (mostly bottom tier) carriers authorizing this. HOWEVER, when applying for your top tier job, I would certainly point out quickly that my multi PIC time includes X hours as sole manipulator on flights where I was otherwise the SIC.

When I was employed as an SIC, I used to log the time as SIC time, but I had a separate column where I kept track of "sole manipulator" time per FAR 61 to help in breaking it out on the resume.

When paired with another PIC, I would log SIC if the other guy was the designated PIC.

 

[guido411]

he can't log anything unless he is checked IAW part 135. If he didnt take at least a 135 SIC check then he is just a passenger. The only time the warm body would be able to log is sole manipulator on a empty leg.

Kinda what I thought. . .might as well stay home and drink beer if that's the case!:beer:

 

[transpac]

I've always wondered why civilian "sole manipulator" logged as PIC was looked at as dishonest and worthless while military "first pilot" time was considered PIC time and was wonderful. Neither person was necessarily the real PIC.

 

[Lord Wakefield]

The FARs don't care how you log time after your ATP


http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=1922527#post1922527

 

[BeenThereDoneIt]

One would think that the Avantair guys would chime in on this thread. I truly think they only post in the negative threads.

 

[ackattacker]

This has been covered so many times.

One thing to be aware of... many employers specify that when they ask for PIC time they mean FAR 1 PIC, which reads as follows:

Pilot in command means the person who:
(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;
(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and
(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.

Even if they don't specify, this is usually what they're looking for. It's legal to log pic time differently under Part 61 but that time is generally only good for FAA purposes and not for resumes.

 

[rettofly]

One would think that the Avantair guys would chime in on this thread. I truly think they only post in the negative threads.

Guess what? One of the Avantair guys did chime in on this: yours truly.

Piaggio time is logged no differently than any other Part 135 operation: If a type is required, You log PIC time for sole manipulator time if you have the type rating. If no type is required, you log PIC time for sole manipulator time.

Just be sure to do full disclosure on future interviews and identify this time as being logged as PIC per FAR 61.51, not Part 135.

Speaking of full disclosure, I too have left Avantair, in order to allow someone to experience the joy of seeing his or her reflection in the side window when they look over to the left for advice.

 

[BeenThereDoneIt]

ROFLMAO Reto!

 

[DelphinDriver]

As a line pilot for Avantair and in light of our new hire class I hope to make a suggestion that may help us to avoid the pitfalls that Mr. BTDI felt he experienced here at Avantair. I understand paperwork is the enemy of all pilots but please help me tailor this report to fit the fractional industry.

http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv37/punkrockHR/hurt-feelings-report.jpg

Among my least favorite people in the world are the whiners. They see all the negative angles of a situation and they always find something to complain about. But the worst effect their whining can do is when their pessimism starts to grow on you too.

What seems to be the simplest strategy is the hardest thing to do. You can think you can ignore them but in reality it gets on your nerves and it gives you added stress. But just like a pathetic joke, if you don’t give it a laugh or even a snicker, it’ll just die. Except for in the case of Mr. BTDI who constantly seems to wish harm publicly on a job that many of us enjoy.

If your stuck on a tour with this type of pilot give your support. Whiners need support and they whine because they’re crying out for help. Offer what you can do to help and lessen their reason to complain.
Whine just for fun. Just to show them how annoying and infuriating their whining is, give them a dose of their own medicine.
Tell them casually by bringing it up on a long repo, During FBO waits or at the hotel bar, you can tell them about it.
Or, you can talk to them seriously about it so they know that you’re serious about it too. You don’t have to report them to the HR department before you tell them that you have a problem with what they do. If nothing else works contact pro standards and let your piers talk with this person so as not to involve management. When stuck in the cockpit with no escape one of the worst things is to have a fellow pilot bombard you with their relentless perception of how horrible things are, especially if this person happens to be your Captain. Whatever happened to conversations being about the opposite sexes body parts?

Don’t complain about your job but do it well. Be excellent in your job. If you consistently shine with your outputs the whiners will feel a bit of embarrassment on how they act towards their own work load. They’ll soon realize that whining won’t get them anywhere. Or maybe not.



Also Mr. BTDI has stated time and time again how there are many unhappy Avantair pilots, this simply is not true, we have the normal ratio of whiners to proffessionals, just a fact of life that most of us learned in our teens.

 

[glasspilot]

ROFLMAO Reto!

Why was that funny to you? He wasn't making fun of Avantair or telling a joke.

 

[BeenThereDoneIt]

The thing about the window was hilarious. Now....about those logbooks......

 

[glasspilot]

No it wasn't. When you "look to the left for advice and see your reflection" it's because you're the captain.

I can see how you thought he was refering to the copilot seeing his reflection, but that's because you are disgrunteled and don't have much experiance. At least this thread might help you along to figure out how to log time.

 

[BeenThereDoneIt]

Now...........about those logbooks......