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CO pilots STICK IT TO THE MAN!

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ultrarunner

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
4,322
How can you not respect these guys/girls! God bless 'em!

"A federal judge Monday tossed out a Continental Airlines lawsuit accusing nine pilots of getting sham divorces so their ex-spouses could collect the pilots' retirement benefits while they kept flying." That’s from The Associated Press, which reports that while the judge said he didn't necessarily condone the pilots' actions, the law did not allow him to rule in Continental’s favor.
The Houston Chronicle writes that "in Monday's decision, U.S. District Judge Gray Miller ruled that regardless of the pilots' intentions, employers and pension plan administrators are not arbiters of the legitimacy of divorces." Miller granted the pilots' motion to dismiss the case. Continental officials say the company is considering an appeal.
As for the alleged sham, AP writes Continental "said it paid out between $10 million and $11 million in suspicious pension distributions. Some individual payments were as much as $900,000, according to court papers. The airline said some of the pilots concealed the divorces from children and friends, then remarried their spouses after getting the money."
The Chronicle adds this explanation: “In its lawsuit, Continental alleged that the pilots filed for divorce but continued to live with their spouses, and never mentioned the divorces to their children and friends. The federal law that governs employer-sponsored retirement plans allows pre-retirement payments to former spouses. Once divorced, the pilots' ex-spouses used this provision to collect lump-sum distributions of the pilots' pension plans, worth up to $900,000 per pilot. In its lawsuit, Continental called the divorces 'subterfuges or sham transactions.' "
 
I don't see anything here being "stuck to the man".

People broke the law, conspired together, didn't even tell their kids and expected to keep their jobs, seniority, pay and call themselves Airline Pilots, represented by ALPA with it's code of ethics.

They can take that scab mentality and shovel it up their ...

I might not have all the facts, correct me if I am wrong, please.
 
First off EMB, I wasn't aware they were charged with a crime. The lawsuit against them was dismissed. Or am I missing something. These guys found a loophole and took advantage of it.

And secondly, I cannot BELIEVE you used the words 'ALPA' and 'code of ethics' in the same sentence!
 
Stuck it to his fellow man (pilots).....

I don't see anything here being "stuck to the man".

People broke the law, conspired together, didn't even tell their kids and expected to keep their jobs, seniority, pay and call themselves Airline Pilots, represented by ALPA with it's code of ethics.

They can take that scab mentality and shovel it up their ...

I might not have all the facts, correct me if I am wrong, please.

I don't see CAL doing anything but guarding the sanctity of retirement fund for ALL future retirees..... If everyone did this, it would immediately bankrupt the retirement fund and all the pilots would suffer.

The way I see it, the "stuck to the man" and the man is in the form of their fellow pilots......

Guess it's "OK" because they got theirs........
 
And secondly, I cannot BELIEVE you used the words 'ALP' and 'code of ethics' in the same sentence!

See?

It is a problem and actions like that change people's view of the world.

I don't think I could continue working as a pilot or be a Union member after faking a divorce and taking a bunch of money from my employer (no matter how terrible the place is) that does not belong to me in truthful review of the situation.

Am I holier then thou? Was I raised in the 50's and honesty and clear conscience are never coming back?

Is it a crime or is there a problem with our judicial system? The Court simply said - it is not for the company to decide if the divorces were faked.
Well, look at those couples when they got the money. Care to name any who lived separately?

While it'll be hard to fix the judicial system, we have much better chance of fixing the Union. We just need to get INVOLVED more! :)
 
I don't see CAL doing anything but guarding the sanctity of retirement fund for ALL future retirees..... If everyone did this, it would immediately bankrupt the retirement fund and all the pilots would suffer.

The way I see it, the "stuck to the man" and the man is in the form of their fellow pilots......

Guess it's "OK" because they got theirs........

Couldn't agree more. Scab mentality poisoned CAL for many years to come. And there is no fix for it.
 
I here what you're saying EMB, but sometimes there is a fine line between loopholes and fraud.

I seem to recall this happening over at Delta too before their pensions were raped...not sure there was a big outcry over there as I think that was done more quietly....

Now obviously the CAL folks that did this could have constructed and executed the plan much better....and likely have avoided the public display...but I don't think they were too worried about it.

Are they still all online, or were they all terminated and have lost their jobs?
 
Guilty

I don't see anything here being "stuck to the man".

People broke the law, conspired together, didn't even tell their kids and expected to keep their jobs, seniority, pay and call themselves Airline Pilots, represented by ALPA with it's code of ethics.

They can take that scab mentality and shovel it up their ...

I might not have all the facts, correct me if I am wrong, please.


If it looks, swims and quacks like a duck...
 
Sounds like a nice, fat legal loophole that corporations shove down our collective throats all the time. Shame more guys didn't take advantage of it.

Nothing illegal here. Move along.
 
Sounds like a nice, fat legal loophole that corporations shove down our collective throats all the time. Shame more guys didn't take advantage of it.

Nothing illegal here. Move along.

Wrong. It violates the spirit of the intended condition. They essentially looted in favor of themselves. Why should they be entitled to circumvent the stipulations when others play by the rules. They're no better than corporate criminals who use the same framework to legally cheat for profit.
 
You got it Purple. I wonder how many if CO's ALPA brothers and sisters at Delta are wishing they'd jumped on it. I know there were likely a few.

Any idea of the number over there General? Rumor-control says one of your seniority-listed mgt pilots jumped on that train.
 
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Wrong. It violates the spirit of the intended condition. They essentially looted in favor of themselves. Why should they be entitled to circumvent the stipulations when others play by the rules. They're no better than corporate criminals who use the same framework to legally cheat for profit.

"Spirit of the intended condition" is like saying "I didn't mean to knock up my prom date-I will accept no parental responsibilities, and I will pay no child support." Both those concepts go about as far in court as a giant lead balloon...

-Wow-some folks are just dense.
 
You guys are funny. I'd take the money in a heartbeat! They earned it and by God they deserve to get it before it's taken in the name of solvency.

Gup
 
There is a difference between what is ethical and what is legal. What they did was legal but not ethical. Therefore, they are not criminals.
 
There is a difference between what is ethical and what is legal. What they did was legal but not ethical. Therefore, they are not criminals.

No kidding! Is it not the companies that use "loopholes" to their advantage at EVERY opportunity, when it benefits them??? And now, in a very rare occurence, a loophole actually benefits, what was it, nine pilots that had the balls to pull the trigger and you guys are crucifying them?

I say good for them.
 
I say good for them...in fact it's got my wheels spinning.

Pilots have been getting screwed by management with all these loopholes for years...and now finally some pilots have the balls to find one and then actually do something about it and then actually win in court and you all get your panties all bunchy.

I fail to see how this "screws their fellow pilot" as some of you have put it. A defined benefit plan is a promise by your company to pay you a certain amount for life upon retirement with some stipulations if you get a divorce. How many other people are in or out of the plan...get there lump-sums or don't, what the return is or isn't is irrelevant...the company promises to pay it has no effect on the other guy.

Is this unethical? Is it unethical for a company to create a sham bankruptcy to get rid of their pension plans? It's hilarious that Continental is now complaining about ethics!

What's really funny is all of you claiming how unethical ALPA and pilots are! Please...our ethics is why we are so hosed now. We're so busy worrying about air system safety, not scaring the flying public, and the rights of the elderly that our pay has turned ordinary. Our ETHICS is the only reason Lorenzo and Crandall are still walking around on their own two legs today. If they had been in the contracting business they would have been floating down some river a long time ago.
 
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Many points to ponder.....

I say good for them...in fact it's got my wheels spinning.

Pilots have been getting screwed by management with all these loopholes for years...and now finally some pilots have the balls to find one and then actually do something about it and then actually win in court and you all get your panties all bunchy.

I fail to see how this "screws their fellow pilot" as some of you have put it. A defined benefit plan is a promise by your company to pay you a certain amount for life upon retirement with some stipulations if you get a divorce. How many other people are in or out of the plan...get there lump-sums or don't, what the return is or isn't is irrelevant...the company promises to pay it has no effect on the other guy.

It screws the fellow pilots because it endangers the viability and solvency of the pension plan for all parties involved. CAL puts in a set amount of money, hopes for investment returns to make up the difference. All of this is based on projections of the participants following the rules, ie dying on time, certain percentages staying married, etc.

The divorce lump sum option is a Federal Govt, femenism holdover, where the wives that were screwed by their cheatin, beatin husbands of the 60's would then divorce them for a younger model leaving the wife penniless and vulnerable, so feminists had the FED GOVT declare a pension earned over 10 years of marriage is joint property and as such can be cashed as an immediate annuity by the spouse if she wants upon divorce. If left up to plan administrators, that would never be a stipulation.

The reference to the DAL pilots was a bit different because I don't believe any of them were actually working, they were trying to trigger a lump sum annuity prior to DAL turning over the whole plan to the FED GOVT to manage prior to BK.

LUV
 
You guys are stupid. Who cares about the ethics!

Some people live by the rules and some live around the rules. I say congrats to the pilots that got away with it. I would have done the same thing, except I don't have an A fund.

You can either work for the system or let the system work for you, I choose the ladder.
 
You guys are stupid. Who cares about the ethics!

Some people live by the rules and some live around the rules. I say congrats to the pilots that got away with it. I would have done the same thing, except I don't have an A fund.

You can either work for the system or let the system work for you, I choose the ladder.

Sean,

Please help. Headline WSJ today says Fear of Douple Dip in Housing! I've been scooping out rental properties like mad, but this could unwind my whole plan. WHAT DO I DO!?!
 
You guys are stupid. Who cares about the ethics!

Some people live by the rules and some live around the rules. I say congrats to the pilots that got away with it. I would have done the same thing, except I don't have an A fund.

You can either work for the system or let the system work for you, I choose the ladder.


It's spelled "latter."

I care about ethics... and ones integrity. Ones actions reflect heavily on these. It's not fair to the others who could've but didn't.
 
Choose the "ladder", excellent idea. Now go fall off it...

This whole point is "Moo"...
 
You guys are stupid. Who cares about the ethics!

Some people live by the rules and some live around the rules. I say congrats to the pilots that got away with it. I would have done the same thing, except I don't have an A fund.

You can either work for the system or let the system work for you, I choose the ladder.

Remind me never to depend on you or guys like you in a foxhole. I think you would frag me in a heartbeat if you felt you could get an extra step on some Al-Queda type who had a bead on us.

No matter how slimy management is, these guys were unethical liars and back-stabbers. They stole from the rest of the pilot group's pension in order to "get theirs."

In fact, I wouldn't doubt most of them thought of the idea from management in the first place!
 
Right or wrong, the policy of exploiting loopholes is the name of the game. A game setup by management and government.

What is ethical is purely subjective. But based on the historical practice of businesses, management, and wealthy tycoons, what these pilots did was completely normal and accepted practice - they researched the rules, found out where the rules were absent and used it to their advantage.
 
OK can someone explain this to me?

1. This was THEIR pension money. Kind of like a savings account that would pay out AFTER they retired, right?

2. Managements have a history of using pension funds for other purposes leaving pilots high and dry while somehow rewarding themselves. Courts and politicians have a history of winking at these management schemes.

3. These pilots decide THEY wanted THEIR money BEFORE management gets to rape pensions to feather management bonuses.

4. CAL management is pissed off because these pilots found a way to prevent them from doing exactly that.

Do I have that right?
 

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