Gen. Petraeus p*sses off the AF

[DaveGriffin]

"DaveGriffin" STILL the internet troll that he is. STILL falsely displaying a SEAL trident which he has NEVER earned.

No real SEAL would waste his time with this drivel.

A few years ago I asked him to verify his claim of being a SEAL. He gave the real credentials of someone else who according to his BUDS Class Date, was in his 50's.

Numerous times I have seen "DaveGriffin" claiming that he went to the USNA in the early 90's. Thus he is a FOS poser, and should be treated as such. ZERO creds!

Pete,

It’s great to see they let you out of your rubber room. Chill out, catch some football this weekend, and try to forget about it only being a weekend furlough. I hope it wasn’t me refusing to respond to your multiple and repeated PMs that pushed you over the edge. I’m guessing you aren’t a stranger to restraining orders.

 

[DaveGriffin]

Dave,

I respectfully disagree with you, and your statement about cultural issues in my opinion, is dead wrong. There are many instances where each service is struggling to work more jointly, but these top Generals still struggle with bias from their backgrounds.
Operation Anaconda is a good example. The Army planned everything, kept the AF out of the loop, and then requested air power at the last minute. They blamed the AF for not being team players, but they failed to bring the AF into the "joint planning process." You can't just call up a B-1 and air support at the 11th hour and expect to get it. The 2 star was even criticized for the Army going it alone and the Operation didn't achieve it's goals.
In Kosovo, Gen Clark couldn't wrap his head around Air Power - he had a distinctive Army/ground bias that didn't enable him to fully utilize the Air Force. I saw Strike Eagles take off fully loaded and land fully loaded 6 hours later - Clark couldn't get it right.

Point being, there is a lot of poo slinging at the five pointed building and much of it is based on perception and misunderstanding; and based on each service fighting for dollars from the same pot - this needs to be changed as it breeds tribalism and duplication of effort by each branch. Admittedly, the AF is relatively new to the expeditionary concept and its organic elements are more decentralized than other services. Therefore, controlling those assets requires a bit more coordination.
The services are frustrated at the AF lack of UAV ability, but you cannot ramp up a program like that overnight. Also, getting fired by Gates was needed, but the Secretary is a civilian position - not necessarily a "brass" issue. And if you think the AF is the only one with those issues, feel free to keep burying your head in the sand.
I am starting to sound like a Command Staff College talking paper so I will stop now. No service is perfect and each branch has it's inherent problems, but for some reason you have a thorn in your side with the AF, and being from the Navy - I don't think you have the "big picture" on AF ops the way that you think you do.

Good luck to your Middies, hopefully the Falcons can reverse the trend this year in Maryland.

Lack of teamwork from the fighter guys as a cultural issue in the AF is real and recognized at all levels in the other branches. Since it’s the fighter guys that run the AF, that’s why the AF gets frequent criticism from The SecDef level and down.

Following is a quote from Major General Franklin L. Hagenbeck discussing fire support at Anaconda.

“The most effective close air support asset we had was the Apache
[AH-64 attack helicopter], hands down. The Apaches were extraordinary— they were lethal and survivable. We had six in the fight with two left flying at the end of the first day. They were so full of holes—hit all over, one took an RPG in the nose—I don’t know how they flew. But the maintenance guys from the 101st fixed every one. They got those helicopters back up and flying. The detainees later said the Apaches were the most feared weapons on the battlefield—the helicopters were on top of them before they knew what was happening. The Apaches came as close to “one shot, one kill” as you can get.

Our next most effective CAS assets were the A-10s in the daytime and AC-130s at night. They were great. We also had F-16s and F/A-18s [fighter aircraft] and B-52s [bomber aircraft] providing CAS. For the most part, they carried JDAMs and some dumb bombs.

Our fixed-wing pilots faced some procedural and maneuvering challenges.
They had a very small view of the target areas from their cockpits—about the size of a postage stamp. (The Navy and Marine Corps fighter pilots routinely flew as low to the ground as they could to achieve the effects, even when it was below what was deemed minimum safe distance. They were terrific.) The Air Force had to work through airspace management—aircraft were stacked up to the ceiling and could only be flown in, in a few numbers. And then the angle of attack in the complex terrain made it even more difficult for the pilots. Certainly they had some close support successes. But the bulk of their successes were against fixed targets, such as when our ground troops identified a cave we wanted taken out.”


It’s not the AF’s inclusion or exclusion from pre-op planning that results in the Gunship and Hog drivers being singled out for high praise and the AF fighter guys being singled out as being ineffective because they couldn't and wouldn’t get down on the deck like the Navy and Marine F-18s. That’s just the way AF fighter guys traditionally work.

Good luck to the Falcons this weekend.

 

[McGillicutty]

You couldn't be more clueless and fake if you tried.

 

[Pistlpetet]

In 2006 you told me you were a 55 year old, with a double digit BUD/S class number. Thus as a 58 year old now, any "information" or "knowledge" you might have, should be severly dated.

Personally I think you are a UPT washout with an AF axe to grind. Keep living in your dream little dreamworld.

Go read the book "Stolen Valor" in your free time. I am sure they can add you to the next revision.

 

[MD11Drvr]

This seems like a completely stupid assed thread. A bunch of crybaby frat boys can't take a joke. It seems as long there are brothers in arms in harms way this type of stupid crap has no place in the discussion. If Gen. Petraus owes someone an apology let him make it or not. Any true Warrior that knows he/she is getting it done would not care about a urinary Olympics between a bunch of Staff Officers. They have other more important crap on their mind.

 

[eyeamthechosen1]

Typical inner service banter that civies or military softies get sensitive about. I was stationed with some corpsman in Saddam's playground. They used to call us stupid and we used to question their sexuality. It passes the time in plus 100 degree days. They need to screen for sensitivity at Meps.

 

[scarface]

I don't know about who is a poser and who is not but I do know there are boards that deal with this sort of thing. But I know you've got to have a sense of humor about this sort of thing. Case in point while attending a social gathering honoring a recently deceased Marine I was seated with a former infantry officer who asked me about what I did in the Corps. I told him I had been a helicopter pilot and he then asked me if I knew so and so. He, his buddy, had flown backseat in an A4. I asked if he meant F4s as the A4s were mainly single seat and the F4 had a RIO. He said "Good God no! He never went to flight school. He was a real Marine." I had to laugh because that's the grunt mentality I remember so well. Grunts run the Corps,as well they should, and I'm not going to be offended when they beat their chest.

 

[MD11Drvr]

Typical inner service banter that civies or military softies get sensitive about. I was stationed with some corpsman in Saddam's playground. They used to call us stupid and we used to question their sexuality. It passes the time in plus 100 degree days. They need to screen for sensitivity at Meps.

I hear you about the banter between the services. When I was in the US Army we gave whoever was around us from another branch as much crap as we could and they gave it right back as it should be. Passing the time but when there was a job to do it was done together if necessary. And you're right if you are too sensative maybe you should consider the Peace Corps. But with Time out stress cards WTF do we expect to get.

 

[Scrapdog]

I hear you about the banter between the services. When I was in the US Army we gave whoever was around us from another branch as much crap as we could and they gave it right back as it should be. Passing the time but when there was a job to do it was done together if necessary. And you're right if you are too sensative maybe you should consider the Peace Corps. But with Time out stress cards WTF do we expect to get.

Unfortunately I hear what you're saying - but it's not the ROOT of the issue. The real issue is the fact that Dave Griffin is a loser, knows zero about tactics or airpower, and constantly spews faux garbage on here targeting AF fighter guys. One, the guy has never been in or around a fighter in his life and two (and more importantly), I doubt this guy has probably ever served.

As far as giving each other crap - it's all in good fun. I had the UNfortunate oppurtunity to work in a JAOC for a week (yes joint - the pretty purple color) where an army LTC was breifing us on the battle rythm (I still roll my eyes at that gay term) for some of his trucks deployed and he needed the AF to send down a decon team to decon the trucks before he could ship them back. I asked him how they were contaminated and he said it was sewage water up to the axles. I then asked him instead of spending 250 grand on sending a decon team - couldn't we just spend about $20 to wash them with soap and water (since all it was was just some poop water and after all these are mil spec trucks). He paused and said -"hmmm, good point - disregard." So much for being the intellect huh? But hey, when you need someone to storm a hill, I'll pick the army any day.

 

[MD11Drvr]

Unfortunately I hear what you're saying - but it's not the ROOT of the issue. The real issue is the fact that Dave Griffin is a loser, knows zero about tactics or airpower, and constantly spews faux garbage on here targeting AF fighter guys. One, the guy has never been in or around a fighter in his life and two (and more importantly), I doubt this guy has probably ever served.

As far as giving each other crap - it's all in good fun. I had the UNfortunate oppurtunity to work in a JAOC for a week (yes joint - the pretty purple color) where an army LTC was breifing us on the battle rythm (I still roll my eyes at that gay term) for some of his trucks deployed and he needed the AF to send down a decon team to decon the trucks before he could ship them back. I asked him how they were contaminated and he said it was sewage water up to the axles. I then asked him instead of spending 250 grand on sending a decon team - couldn't we just spend about $20 to wash them with soap and water (since all it was was just some poop water and after all these are mil spec trucks). He paused and said -"hmmm, good point - disregard." So much for being the intellect huh? But hey, when you need someone to storm a hill, I'll pick the army any day.

I was an enlisted (E-5) guy so I regularly questioned the intellect of officers. I took great pride in the fact that it took a college degree to break it and a High School Diploma to fix it. 67Y AH-1/67R AH-64 Crew Chief.

 

[DaveGriffin]

Unfortunately I hear what you're saying - but it's not the ROOT of the issue. The real issue is the fact that Dave Griffin is a loser, knows zero about tactics or airpower, and constantly spews faux garbage on here targeting AF fighter guys. One, the guy has never been in or around a fighter in his life and two (and more importantly), I doubt this guy has probably ever served.

As far as giving each other crap - it's all in good fun. I had the UNfortunate oppurtunity to work in a JAOC for a week (yes joint - the pretty purple color) where an army LTC was breifing us on the battle rythm (I still roll my eyes at that gay term) for some of his trucks deployed and he needed the AF to send down a decon team to decon the trucks before he could ship them back. I asked him how they were contaminated and he said it was sewage water up to the axles. I then asked him instead of spending 250 grand on sending a decon team - couldn't we just spend about $20 to wash them with soap and water (since all it was was just some poop water and after all these are mil spec trucks). He paused and said -"hmmm, good point - disregard." So much for being the intellect huh? But hey, when you need someone to storm a hill, I'll pick the army any day.

Scrapdog,

The AF fighter guys should thank their lucky stars every day that precision guidance and imaging technology came along to allow AF legacy air supremacy platforms to deliver ‘above 15,000 ft’ accurate strike capability.

My comments are directed at the senior leadership of the AF, not former AF fighter guys now ferrying grandma to Disney World or delivering pallets of Amazon.com packages. Those guys spend too much time worrying about their pilot union issues.

The AF leadership perpetuates a culture where executing effective COIN plays second fiddle to their true higher calling – an air centric model for all engagements where, due to their self proclaimed superior intellect, training and war fighting capabilities, the AF runs the whole show. This is the attitude that makes the AF an underperforming team player in the current war.

The AF’s core commitment to supporting COIN is the issue. The Generals are far more focused on protecting their budgets for what they view are more important strategic goals.They would much rather spend all their time and budget to engage the MIG 1.44 or a quadruple digit SAM site. The senior fighter guys’ hearts just aren’t in COIN.

But they are slowly getting better as they get dragged along kicking and screaming.

The SecDef didn’t fire your top two guys for nothing; it wasn’t just the multiple nuke cluster f***.

 

[Oh-ryan]

None of you guys know squat about air support. You'll never know the deep sense of pride associated with spending countless hours circling over a cold pattern, drinking metallic tasting coffee culminating with the dumping of a few gallons of urine on the ramp as soon as the ladder hits the pavement.

Nothing else compares. I think only UAV pilots can claim bigger bragging rights- though we got more per diem.

 

[DaveGriffin]

Here is an article from 19 Sep 2009 including an interesting interview with a USAF Major who believes the AF is slowly on its way to reforming it’s old fighter pilot centric culture into to a culture more focused on successfully fighting smaller, asymmetric counter-insurgencies.

http://www.offiziere.ch/?p=1930

This quote sums it up:

But more money isn’t going to fix that, Ward insisted. “More money is our problem,” he declared. “We’re over-funded.” The Air Force Ward described is one that suffers such deep cultural weaknesses that extra money would only sustain failing institutions and prolong the service’s suffering. What the Air Force needs, he said, is less money, because that would force officials to think creatively and fund only programs that deliver what’s needed, in time.

Fundamentally, the Air Force’s problems reflect a “failure of imagination,” Ward said.

Major Ward is exactly correct. With the support of a new generation of AF officers such as Maj. Ward, Sec Gates may yet succeed in turning the AF around.

 

[skyward80]

As a USAFR Gucci Driver, I always say "If you can't fight a war in style, why fight at all?!"

I love flipping my long luscious locks of hair around while I dig into a 20-lb box of food and play cards on the center console.

My hat goes off to the guys/gals on the ground. We all work very hard while deployed, but they truly carry more than their own weight. If somebody wants to make a funny about that, that's fine by me. It's just a joke. If you're in the USAF, you need to know it happens a lot more often than just in Gen P's speech.

Try working with the Navy for a while... cuz if I hear one more joke about landing on land vs a boat (wouldn't this be called "boating" or "shipping"?), I might just lose it.

Skyward80

 

[Huggyu2]

Back to the subject of Gen Patraeus: as a career USAF officer, I found his comments to be humorous and in the spirit of the comraderie I'd expect to hear from him.