Kelly quote

[General Lee]

I haven't seen this much emotion since my pregnant wife found out DQ was out of dilly bars.

deleted......


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I like reading your posts about WN/F9. It makes me smile. You have no fight in this at all. You don't work for F9 or WN. It has nothing to do with you.

Everything you say about our situation is pointless and a waste of your time. Yet, it seems to consume you. Is there anything in this world you won't comment on, or post your opinion about?

Thanks. A little slow on the DL front, so I thought I would comment on something so ridiculous like this staple thing. It really is crazy, and it is just fun to participate in such a great debate. I love it. It also can show everyone else what types of egos certain pilot groups have. USAPA was shown as evil, and everyone now pretty much agrees with that. I wonder what people will think of SWAPA when this is over? They probably don't care, because it really is all about them. SWAPA fights for them.......


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[WildcatFan]

Glad you love it General. Im sure all the F9 guys appreciate your entertainment as well. Call us arrogant if you want, but F9 guys get a pay raise and a job at the most secure airline in the industry in the worst economy since any of us were born. They have much more to lose than we do. Unlike F9, SWAs future does not ride on what happens in Den. We are asking them to come aboard and help us succeed even more. If they think that Gary isnt serious then they are taking a huge gamble, that is their choice. You've got SWA guys here saying that that would be a mistake because we know our mgt. This isnt a game. It is easy to sit back and throw stones when it isnt your house and family at stake though, isnt it?

 

[firstthird]

Gary Kelly is merely playing high stakes poker - you all know that... He can't just say, "we may crumble and give you what you want, maybe."

Why would SWA be willing to pay $60M more than Republic for F9? Hmmmm, maybe because they understand it would be a tremendous asset and certainly solidify growth opportunities for the years ahead (and you would have a place to put your incoming aircraft). Getting rid of another pesky low-cost competitor (with better service and more comfortable seats, I might add) would be another great benefit for SWA.

But, I guess the pilots know best in this case... They learned this while attending Top Gun. Say hello to Kelly McGillis and Meg Ryan for us...

SWA's bid is higher partly because RAH is one of F9s creditors, so we'd have to pay them off, so our bid has to be higher since they would get credit for what they are already owed.

it isn't about pilots knowing best. it is about Gary not wanting another AWA/Usair or TWA/AAL situation. labor harmony counts so he gave SWAPA the tools to ensure an integration that we can live with vice an arbitrator imposed one. it is pretty simple. SWA values their culture and workers. SWA isn't in bankruptcy. SWA is bidding but can withdrawal the bid and then there is only one bid in.

 

[General Lee]

Glad you love it General. Im sure all the F9 guys appreciate your entertainment as well. Call us arrogant if you want, but F9 guys get a pay raise and a job at the most secure airline in the industry in the worst economy since any of us were born. They have much more to lose than we do. Unlike F9, SWAs future does not ride on what happens in Den. We are asking them to come aboard and help us succeed even more. If they think that Gary isnt serious then they are taking a huge gamble, that is their choice. You've got SWA guys here saying that that would be a mistake because we know our mgt. This isnt a game. It is easy to sit back and throw stones when it isnt your house and family at stake though, isnt it?

But you see, we had the same deal when we bought the Pan Am routes and some of their planes. We didn't staple them, though. We gave them a pretty good deal, and some became DL Captains right away during the first subsequent bid. At that time Delta had better financials than SWA does today. Sure, not everyone is happy during a situation like this, but that doesn't mean you should treat them like dirt. A staple does that, and just because you are on the stronger side, doesn't mean you should take full advantage of the situation. All I am saying is that they should get some credit for something. You guys are unfortunately afraid to see an arbitrator. Do you think an arbitrator would give you something unfair? You don't like being fair? That is something you should think about. If F9 really has nothing to bring to the table, that will reflect in arbitration, by a NEUTRAL.

And throwing stones? Huh? I have been through a lot more than you have so far in your stellar airline career. We have gone through the best contract ever made for pilots (our C2K which still has the highest rates ever), then through 9-11 and the pulldown, a BK, and a merger. You have pebbles compared to my STONES. Wake up. Man alive, you guys are SOOO cocky, it is hillarious.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[HighSpeed]

Hey General remember F9 is in a bankruptcy AUCTION - a staple w/pay protection (pre-concessions) is a good offer!

 

[General Lee]

Hey General remember F9 is in a bankruptcy AUCTION - a staple w/pay protection (pre-concessions) is a good offer!

Sure, it is a good offer, but there is a better one out there, and a fair one. If the F9 pilots knew they were going to liquidate tomorrow, then I would say a Staple may be appropriate. But, they are not, and offer SWA a lot of things that would make SWA stronger. They also have a contract that was not dumped by the BK judge, which means they go along with the assets. So, if SWA wants the assets, they will take the pilots, and the F9 pilots know this. Give them a better offer, and they may take it. Treat them like dirt, (staple--with no value added), and they will refuse, and both F9 and SWA will lose.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[RedDogC130]

NOT WRITTEN BY ME- RD

Don't dismiss the precedent of what happened to the Former Muse/Transtar
pilots. They (their ALPA MEC) refused to accept a staple to the bottom of the SWA seniority list. The rank and file did not get to vote. The outcome was that SWA operated them as a wholly owned subsidiary for 2 or so years and then put them straight into chapter 7 for liquidation, bypassing chapter 11 bankruptcy. Plenty of airlines were happy to take their aircraft without the problem of having to deal with labor integration issues. There was no airline at that point, only aircraft, so there were no employees to deal with. The result was that instead of EVERY Muse/Transtar pilot being a Captain at SWA by 1990, they all went straight to unemployment and got to start over wherever they could get hired. A few did get on at SWA the old fashioned way, they interviewed after getting a 737 type and came on as new hires in 1988 with some 3 years and a huge percentage less seniority than they would have had.
SWA could do what GK has said, which is operate Frontier as a separate entity for 2 years and then "gradually draw it down as 737's replace the Airbus". Lynx could be operated separately as well and retained indefinitely. It already seems that their pilots would be happy to join SWA at the bottom and move up from there.
A problem with this is that F9 pilots would be in 2 camps. One that is unhappy with their situation and could be disruptive. The other would be unhappy with the first group and who would have accecpted whatever deal they could have wrangled out of SWA/SWAPA.
Everyone has their own opinion, but this scenario has been acted out in the past and SWA management and SWAPA leadership know it.
In the Muse/Transtar and Morris buyouts I believe it was Herb's position to not automatically hire any of the pilots, but to only offer them preferential interviews. Swapa opposed this as it would have resulted in non-SWAPA pilots flying SWA owned aircraft (Scope issue), for some period of time even it it were to be a matter of months or a year or two.
If anyone has other or more accurate information on this, please correct anything I have posted that is not correct.

 

[flyingitalian]

Your comparison of DL and NW merger to the F9 and WN deal is not even close, but good try. Quit patting yourself on the back for being so "fair."

Gary wants this deal, but not at the expense of labor. Hard for many to understand, but that the deal we made. Personally I hope the deal dies, and Republic gets them. Then we can get back to the business of competing for business instead of trying to buy it.

 

[MDP727]

"General Lee you are an ATA dude aren't you? At least WN if offering these guys slots. Don't let your anger at what happened to you cause people to lose profitable careers, they have families to think about."

Go F yourself. I'm an ATA guy. Your union is part of the reason ATA and SWA didn't merge. Instead John D dismantled a company piece by piece. Thanks however, I stopped flying after that and make more money than your captains. If someone asks hey wanna do a trip on your YACHT for Labor day I don't have to wait and see how the bid works out. F9 stand your ground.

 

[vv100]

YACHT
YACHT
YACHT


Here's a cookie.

 

[instructordude]

NOT WRITTEN BY ME- RD

Don't dismiss the precedent of what happened to the Former Muse/Transtar
pilots. They (their ALPA MEC) refused to accept a staple to the bottom of the SWA seniority list. The rank and file did not get to vote. The outcome was that SWA operated them as a wholly owned subsidiary for 2 or so years and then put them straight into chapter 7 for liquidation, bypassing chapter 11 bankruptcy. Plenty of airlines were happy to take their aircraft without the problem of having to deal with labor integration issues. There was no airline at that point, only aircraft, so there were no employees to deal with. The result was that instead of EVERY Muse/Transtar pilot being a Captain at SWA by 1990, they all went straight to unemployment and got to start over wherever they could get hired. A few did get on at SWA the old fashioned way, they interviewed after getting a 737 type and came on as new hires in 1988 with some 3 years and a huge percentage less seniority than they would have had.
SWA could do what GK has said, which is operate Frontier as a separate entity for 2 years and then "gradually draw it down as 737's replace the Airbus". Lynx could be operated separately as well and retained indefinitely. It already seems that their pilots would be happy to join SWA at the bottom and move up from there.
A problem with this is that F9 pilots would be in 2 camps. One that is unhappy with their situation and could be disruptive. The other would be unhappy with the first group and who would have accecpted whatever deal they could have wrangled out of SWA/SWAPA.
Everyone has their own opinion, but this scenario has been acted out in the past and SWA management and SWAPA leadership know it.
In the Muse/Transtar and Morris buyouts I believe it was Herb's position to not automatically hire any of the pilots, but to only offer them preferential interviews. Swapa opposed this as it would have resulted in non-SWAPA pilots flying SWA owned aircraft (Scope issue), for some period of time even it it were to be a matter of months or a year or two.
If anyone has other or more accurate information on this, please correct anything I have posted that is not correct.

It can't happen today because the McCain Feingold and Mohawk Allegeny acts prohibit this kind of immature behavoir.

 

[MILPILOT17]

But you see, we had the same deal when we bought the Pan Am routes and some of their planes. We didn't staple them, though. We gave them a pretty good deal, and some became DL Captains right away during the first subsequent bid. At that time Delta had better financials than SWA does today. Sure, not everyone is happy during a situation like this, but that doesn't mean you should treat them like dirt. A staple does that, and just because you are on the stronger side, doesn't mean you should take full advantage of the situation. All I am saying is that they should get some credit for something. You guys are unfortunately afraid to see an arbitrator. Do you think an arbitrator would give you something unfair? You don't like being fair? That is something you should think about. If F9 really has nothing to bring to the table, that will reflect in arbitration, by a NEUTRAL.

And throwing stones? Huh? I have been through a lot more than you have so far in your stellar airline career. We have gone through the best contract ever made for pilots (our C2K which still has the highest rates ever), then through 9-11 and the pulldown, a BK, and a merger. You have pebbles compared to my STONES. Wake up. Man alive, you guys are SOOO cocky, it is hillarious.

Bye Bye--General Lee

General, Serious question; are you for a National Seniority List?

 

[waveflyer]

Haha- umm look up McCain-Feingold and see if you want to revise that post- Off the top of my head campaign finance reform isn't too applicable- but I'm sure there might be six degrees of separation there somehow

 

[waveflyer]

Look- noone is saying that F9 doesn't bring something to the table- but they are each getting an average of $50k/ year payraise- what is the average SWAPA pilot getting?

You have to see this in context - age 65 which was very divisive at Swa
the last TA was perceived as slanting towards the senior- everyone senior and junior is tiring of that- and it's just not politically viable to have anything but a staple- bc in the average wn pilot's view- what does the deal do for them if a bunch of guys go on top of our pilots?

You have to answer that- the F9 guys get tangible benefits with the merger- $$ that pays the mortgage- what does CJ get out of it?

A staple sucks but I wish that some ATA and Aloha captains I know could tell their experiences. Starting over sucks- being junior is a risk, but not comparable to starting all over. I worry for F9 under republic.