continental pension underfunding

[CitationLover]

Alas, it is true. And with them go the last vestiges of a once great nation. Human secularism.....what a way to go!

yes.....stem cells bad, but they wear eyeglasses to correct god's "mistake". bush's gut was wrong, admit it.

denial is the first step......

 

[Flopgut]

CAL A plan retirement age is 60. It has not been changed to 65.

 

[SFR]

No, I did get it. Reserve is not time off. Ask those sitting reserve in a crash pad if they feel like they have time off? Ask those sitting reserve with a commute if they have time off watching the weather and the flights?

It is not you SFR. It is the entire CAL pilot group who doesn't get it. Don't take it personal SFR. It's CAL.

But the main point is CAL is the MESA of majors. And CAL pilots like licking Larry's boots and would do the same if Jonathon Ornstein was the next CEO as well.

A contract is not based on FAR's. And it isn't worth anything if it only pays you for what you do. Hard time is not the measure of your worth. Everyday you stand in a security line, preflight and aircraft, check the weather, deal with maintenance, get to spend three hours in the crew room, go to training, and don't get paid, you are leaving money on the table.

This pension issue is simply the wipe saw which is going to reduce those 5+ year pay rates down to the other legacies to be competitive.

So how are those less than 5+ pay rates? How are your work rules? How is training? How is your scheduling section? I know. Just like MESA's.

Try telling all this to my tenants here that work 6 days a week for less than half the pay.

Oh, also tell them that my time at home sitting reserve is not time off.....

It is all perspective...and most pilots lose that...

 

[Ex737Driver]

.......bush's gut was wrong, admit it.

denial is the first step......

No, his intelligence reports and gatherers were and denial is actually a river in Egypt.

 

[CitationLover]

No, his intelligence reports and gatherers were and denial is actually a river in Egypt.

so his "intelligence" reports were wrong in iraq, new orleans, the banking system, medicare part b, and being greeted as liberators.

fool me once, shame on — [pauses] - shame on you. Fool me — I can't get fooled again.

 

[T-Bags]

so his "intelligence" reports were wrong in iraq, new orleans, the banking system, medicare part b, and being greeted as liberators.

fool me once, shame on — [pauses] - shame on you. Fool me — I can't get fooled again.

First, I never called you a name, I said you made an uneducated jab.....as far as the intel....same intel we've had for the last 20 years....too bad our capability to gather intel is so bad, for more info, google "church commission"...new orleans? an incompetent liberal mayor and an even more incompetent Gov. They were told to evacuate, and then were too stupid to request aid (which is the LAW). Oh course the dikes were in PERFECT shape from 1992 until 2001 when evil republican teams of saboteurs, fresh off inventing the aids virus and crack cocaine to kill gays and blacks, weakend the dikes that Algore had built....

Do a little research on what REALLY caused the banking debacle (I'll give you a hint....Frank, Dodd, Carter, Clinton, Raines, Freddie, Fannie.....). Sadly, the republicans in the senate tried to stop it in 2005 (before the collapse), but the dems banded together to stop the bill.....YEAH!!

 

[thor2j]

No, I did get it. Reserve is not time off. Ask those sitting reserve in a crash pad if they feel like they have time off? Ask those sitting reserve with a commute if they have time off watching the weather and the flights?

It is not you SFR. It is the entire CAL pilot group who doesn't get it. Don't take it personal SFR. It's CAL.

But the main point is CAL is the MESA of majors. And CAL pilots like licking Larry's boots and would do the same if Jonathon Ornstein was the next CEO as well.

A contract is not based on FAR's. And it isn't worth anything if it only pays you for what you do. Hard time is not the measure of your worth. Everyday you stand in a security line, preflight and aircraft, check the weather, deal with maintenance, get to spend three hours in the crew room, go to training, and don't get paid, you are leaving money on the table.

This pension issue is simply the wipe saw which is going to reduce those 5+ year pay rates down to the other legacies to be competitive.

So how are those less than 5+ pay rates? How are your work rules? How is training? How is your scheduling section? I know. Just like MESA's.

Boy, you really have NO idea what you are talking about!

 

[CitationLover]

First, I never called you a name, I said you made an uneducated jab.....as far as the intel....same intel we've had for the last 20 years....too bad our capability to gather intel is so bad, for more info, google "church commission"...new orleans? an incompetent liberal mayor and an even more incompetent Gov. They were told to evacuate, and then were too stupid to request aid (which is the LAW). Oh course the dikes were in PERFECT shape from 1992 until 2001 when evil republican teams of saboteurs, fresh off inventing the aids virus and crack cocaine to kill gays and blacks, weakend the dikes that Algore had built....

Do a little research on what REALLY caused the banking debacle (I'll give you a hint....Frank, Dodd, Carter, Clinton, Raines, Freddie, Fannie.....). Sadly, the republicans in the senate tried to stop it in 2005 (before the collapse), but the dems banded together to stop the bill.....YEAH!!

you're preaching to the choir.....democrats are idiots too, bush is one also. bush isn't fit to be called a republican. the religious right has hijacked the GOP and all of goldwater's work has been dismantled by jesus freaks.

BOTH parties are responsible for the mess we are in. it is not the exclusive property of dems or republicans, bush is to blame simply cause he was in charge for the last 8 years. obama will be blamed for any mess 4 or 8 years from now.

 

[SFR]

you're preaching to the choir.....democrats are idiots too, bush is one also. bush isn't fit to be called a republican. the religious right has hijacked the GOP and all of goldwater's work has been dismantled by jesus freaks.

BOTH parties are responsible for the mess we are in. it is not the exclusive property of dems or republicans, bush is to blame simply cause he was in charge for the last 8 years. obama will be blamed for any mess 4 or 8 years from now.

Be careful talking bad about Jesus, or your luck will change for the worse. He is the reason we can have eternal life.

If you don't believe me, try faith and see what he give you. You WILL be amazed....

 

[007]

I think this whole pension plan crap is gonna start rolling downhill. All of the sudden Larry is gonna "realize" it's underfunded and offer the union to fund it for the 70 seat clause. The geezer's will sell out and Larry will get his 70's in CAL colors operated by Chautauqua.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

I think this whole pension plan crap is gonna start rolling downhill. All of the sudden Larry is gonna "realize" it's underfunded and offer the union to fund it for the 70 seat clause. The geezer's will sell out and Larry will get his 70's in CAL colors operated by Chautauqua.

Hit the nail on the head!

 

[catIIIc]

There is not enough of them left to get that passed.

 

[list2002]

Let's hope so.

 

[CitationLover]

Be careful talking bad about Jesus, or your luck will change for the worse. He is the reason we can have eternal life.

If you don't believe me, try faith and see what he give you. You WILL be amazed....

It's ok. You can believe what you want, just don't impose your beliefs upon others.

Even the demons had faith and they are in hell.

 

[007]

There is not enough of them left to get that passed.

Add a healthy payraise for the F/O's and it will pass. Just watch.

 

[Flopgut]

No scope clause, no pension.

 

[Ex737Driver]

Add a healthy payraise for the F/O's and it will pass. Just watch.

Untrue. Ask some of the 1500+ guys hired in the last 4 years and several other things come to mind before that; benefits, their own retirement, rigs and work rules, etc.

C02 passed by 52% to 48% and 330 failed to vote. Most pilots here understand that if they allow OUR 60-90 flying to be farmed out, in 5-10 years we won't have a Continental domestic system and with it any new growth or new jobs.

Old guys, soon-to-be-retireees, scabs, scab hopefulls, and managment turn-coats............this is our contract and our time now. We will do this as a unifed group or we won't do this at all. Gone are the days of passing the buck to the junior pilots while you walk off into the sunset with yours. Either start planning now for what may be a long-drawn out process or take your A-fund and leave. We will be here long after any of you are gone and want to keep this airline intact for those that follow.

 

[007]

Untrue. Ask some of the 1500+ guys hired in the last 4 years and several other things come to mind before that; benefits, their own retirement, rigs and work rules, etc.

C02 passed by 52% to 48% and 330 failed to vote. Most pilots here understand that if they allow OUR 60-90 flying to be farmed out, in 5-10 years we won't have a Continental domestic system and with it any new growth or new jobs.

Old guys, soon-to-be-retireees, scabs, scab hopefulls, and managment turn-coats............this is our contract and our time now. We will do this as a unifed group or we won't do this at all. Gone are the days of passing the buck to the junior pilots while you walk off into the sunset with yours. Either start planning now for what may be a long-drawn out process or take your A-fund and leave. We will be here long after any of you are gone and want to keep this airline intact for those that follow.

I hope you're right...

 

[JI Gone OH]

Add a healthy payraise for the F/O's and it will pass. Just watch.

Not a chance...

 

[HHH]

Add a healthy payraise for the F/O's and it will pass. Just watch.

Add another "not a chance" to the count.

Fuel - $45 barrel
Turkey Sandwich - $1.25
Over-hyped mouthpiece called a CEO - $20 million
Pilot - $$$ whole lot more than what we're getting now

The cost of a pilot is the cost of a pilot. If you can't afford it then shut this place down.

 

[densoo]

Um , yes it still sucks, but last I checked CALs payrates from year 5+ are as high if not higher then most legacy carriers.

A classic management argument. Payrates don't tell the story. Without meaningful duty rigs you get paid for what you fly. Fly 80 hours blocked, 80 hours paid. At a Legacy Carrier, duty rigs will get you 100 hours of pay for the same 80 hours blocked. This is essentially a 25% pay hike over CAL's payrates, leaving CAL in the dust in comparing of hours paid vice hours worked. Have you read of pilots at other carriers getting paid 120, 130, or even 140 hours of pay for an 80-hour line? Let's not even get into doing your annual qualification training, including travel days, on your days off! Or essentially aggregating your days off into a 7-day off block and then calling that your vacation. Another 7 days of work for free. Or getting getting actual hours worked subtracted from your pay when you call in sick (yes, this is what happens at CAL when you call in sick. it is sort of reverse sick leave policy. call in sick, they subtract hours you've already flown that month from your paycheck). See this thread of 2008 W2s for a couple of examples:

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=119995&highlight=hours+paid+blocked

some quotes:

-- "blocked 886 hours, paid for 1253"

-- "3.8 hours of credit for every single day last year. Not just work days, but all 365"

-- "getting paid at an average rate of almost 1.4 times base rate for every single hour flown"

-- "Open time was paid double time" (open time at CAL is paid face value, and even at that pilots ravenously to pick it up even with pilots on the street)

-- "credited almost 1300 hours for the year"

-- "flew 308 hours in 2008, grossed 204,600"

Couple this with FAR max duty days, near FAR min rest (9:45 block to block routinely), coach seats for IRO across the Atlantic, FOs flying as CAs on ultra-longhaul flights, senior CAs bumped for nonrev by one-year catering "supervisors"--and much, much more--and you've got an entirely different pay and lifestyle at CAL. One that couldn't in any way be considered "Legacy Carrier."

Oh, yes, I almost forgot what this thread was about--the pension is underfunded. This is so that they won't have to pay the lump sum. Everyone will be getting the annuity. And if you think an annuity won't be at some point turned over to the government in your 15 to 20 years in retirement at 30% on the dollar, then you also think pay rates at CAL are just super-duper!

 

[CitationLover]

Oh, yes, I almost forgot what this thread was about--the pension is underfunded. This is so that they won't have to pay the lump sum. Everyone will be getting the annuity. And if you think an annuity won't be at some point turned over to the government in your 15 to 20 years in retirement at 30% on the dollar, then you also think pay rates at CAL are just super-duper!

For the umpteenth time, if you believe this you are STUPID. Management WANTS the lump sum option as it reduces the plans liability and administration costs once it is exercised. Are you too stubborn to see this? Management has NO right to the money in the plan once its there except if the plan is terminated and you have overfunded funds in there (which is not the case now). Call any ALPA R&I rep and please get FACTS before spouting off.

And your beef with an annuity is hardly making a point. What good is a lump sum option right now with equities falling 5% every week or so? Bonds aren't any better with companies failing left and right and a credit market tightening up. Where would you put the money, your mattress?

 

[densoo]

"Management has NO right to the money in the plan once its there except if....."

Thanks for making my point. At CAL "except if" means it "will."

 

[thor2j]

Densoo,

boy you really need to get all your facts right before you shoot off at the mouth.

We all know that CALs contract is the worst of the legacies, but when you state things that happen once in a blue moon as fact it really makes you sound like you know nothing. Why not state every single mother in California has 16 kids.

The days of working 50 hours and getting paid 100 are LONG gone. Ask anyone at AA,DL,UA, etc...
They are all working much more.

For the record I dead head in FIRST class to Europe, spend 24 hours there, then spend another 2 1/2 hours in First Class before I go to the cockpit for about 5 hours. Real tough. So once a week I spend 5 hours in the cockpit for 17+hrs pay. Once in the last year and a half have I been in coach.

We all know it is bad at CAL, but we plan on fixing it one way or another.

 

[densoo]

Densoo,

boy you really need to get all your facts right before you shoot off at the mouth.

We all know that CALs contract is the worst of the legacies, but when you state things that happen once in a blue moon as fact it really makes you sound like you know nothing. Why not state every single mother in California has 16 kids.

The days of working 50 hours and getting paid 100 are LONG gone. Ask anyone at AA,DL,UA, etc...
They are all working much more.

For the record I dead head in FIRST class to Europe, spend 24 hours there, then spend another 2 1/2 hours in First Class before I go to the cockpit for about 5 hours. Real tough. So once a week I spend 5 hours in the cockpit for 17+hrs pay. Once in the last year and a half have I been in coach.

We all know it is bad at CAL, but we plan on fixing it one way or another.

Your are right. I was rash. Please accept my corrections, below:

A classic management argument. Payrates don't tell the story. Without meaningful duty rigs you get paid for what you fly. Fly 80 hours blocked, 80 hours paid. At a Legacy Carrier, duty rigs will get you 100 hours of pay for the same 80 hours blocked. This is essentially a 25% pay hike over CAL's payrates, leaving CAL in the dust in comparing of hours paid vice hours worked. Have you read of pilots at other carriers getting paid 120, 130, or even 140 hours of pay for an 80-hour line? Let's not even get into doing your annual qualification training, including travel days, on your days off! Or essentially aggregating your days off into a 7-day off block and then calling that your vacation. Another 7 days of work for free. Or getting getting actual hours worked subtracted from your pay when you call in sick (yes, this is what happens at CAL when you call in sick. it is sort of reverse sick leave policy. call in sick, they subtract hours you've already flown that month from your paycheck). See this thread of 2008 W2s for a couple of examples:

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthr...paid+block ed

some quotes:

-- "blocked 886 hours, paid for 1253"

-- "3.8 hours of credit for every single day last year. Not just work days, but all 365"

-- "getting paid at an average rate of almost 1.4 times base rate for every single hour flown"

-- "Open time was paid double time" (open time at CAL is paid face value, and even at that pilots ravenously to pick it up even with pilots on the street)

-- "credited almost 1300 hours for the year"

-- "flew 308 hours in 2008, grossed 204,600"

Couple this with FAR max duty days, near FAR min rest (9:45 block to block routinely), [text deleted: coach seats for IRO across the Atlantic], FOs flying as CAs on ultra-longhaul flights, senior CAs bumped for nonrev by one-year catering "supervisors"--and much, much more--and you've got an entirely different pay and lifestyle at CAL. One that couldn't in any way be considered "Legacy Carrier."

Oh, yes, I almost forgot what this thread was about--the pension is underfunded. This is so that they won't have to pay the lump sum. Everyone will be getting the annuity. And if you think an annuity won't be at some point turned over to the government in your 15 to 20 years in retirement at 30% on the dollar, then you also think pay rates at CAL are just super-duper!

 

[Flopgut]

For the umpteenth time, if you believe this you are STUPID. Management WANTS the lump sum option as it reduces the plans liability and administration costs once it is exercised. Are you too stubborn to see this? Management has NO right to the money in the plan once its there except if the plan is terminated and you have overfunded funds in there (which is not the case now). Call any ALPA R&I rep and please get FACTS before spouting off.

And your beef with an annuity is hardly making a point. What good is a lump sum option right now with equities falling 5% every week or so? Bonds aren't any better with companies failing left and right and a credit market tightening up. Where would you put the money, your mattress?

There are hundreds of millions of dollars in lost pilot pensions wearing an 800lb gorilla suit in the room with you that you should stop ignoring. CAL doesn't care nearly as much about the overall liabilities of the pilot A plan (annuity vs. lump sum) as they utterly hate their pilot employees and would love to scuttle their entire futures. Everyone last one of them.

 

[Homer Jay]

Densoo,

boy you really need to get all your facts right before you shoot off at the mouth.

We all know that CALs contract is the worst of the legacies, but when you state things that happen once in a blue moon as fact it really makes you sound like you know nothing. Why not state every single mother in California has 16 kids.

The days of working 50 hours and getting paid 100 are LONG gone. Ask anyone at AA,DL,UA, etc...
They are all working much more.

For the record I dead head in FIRST class to Europe, spend 24 hours there, then spend another 2 1/2 hours in First Class before I go to the cockpit for about 5 hours. Real tough. So once a week I spend 5 hours in the cockpit for 17+hrs pay. Once in the last year and a half have I been in coach.

We all know it is bad at CAL, but we plan on fixing it one way or another.

See, this is what scares me. It's apparent you've never worked for a carrier with real work rules, rigs, etc. You don't know what we're missing therefore you will have no problem voting in a subpar TA. You can count my vote as a big NO on TA#1.

 

[thor2j]

See, this is what scares me. It's apparent you've never worked for a carrier with real work rules, rigs, etc. You don't know what we're missing therefore you will have no problem voting in a subpar TA. You can count my vote as a big NO on TA#1.

Wrong as usual, I promise you I will be walking the streets before I vote for anything less the industry leading contract. All that I was stating is that Poca-A-Hols, I mean Densoo doesn't really know what he is talking about. I have many friends that work at all the Legacies, SWA, UPS, Fedex, the days of work 50 hours get paid for 100 and sit at home 28 days a month are long gone.

 

[CitationLover]

Thanks for making my point. At CAL "except if" means it "will."

You can't have your cake and eat it dummy. You complain about the plan being underfunded and now say I'm making your point regarding a plan being overfunded. what is it genius?

 

[CitationLover]

There are hundreds of millions of dollars in lost pilot pensions wearing an 800lb gorilla suit in the room with you that you should stop ignoring. CAL doesn't care nearly as much about the overall liabilities of the pilot A plan (annuity vs. lump sum) as they utterly hate their pilot employees and would love to scuttle their entire futures. Everyone last one of them.

If you can explain to me how the pilot pensions at UAL, USAirways, DAL were "lost" then maybe we can talk about the mechanics of a plan shutdown.

Can you explain this or are you simply ranting without knowing nothing about the subject?

You view this as a grand scheme by management versus a global economic crisis. Its apparent via your paranoia. Management is stupid on a lot of fronts, but if they are that stupid why do you think they are so smart to screw the pilots over? The pension plan is underfunded at this time through a combination of low interest rates and horrific investment returns (both of which are a product of the economic environment). It is not in its current state due to a deliberate manipulation from management. MOST pension plans are in bad shape these days, this is why defined benefit plans are a dying breed.