Bird Strike and Corporate Jets

[NJAowner]

First -- today's episode shows the importance of well trained and experienced pilots.

Now I know little about the mechanics of flying and aero engineering, but do apply some logic. Does the location of the jets on a corporate jet (on the tail section) reduce the chance of a bird strike? I would guess that since the engine is not hanging out on a wing, far away from the fuselage, but close to the fuselage, that the fuselage would help disperse many birds before they hit the jet engine. Is this the case?

Thanks.

 

[CA1900]

NJAowner -- yes, tail mounted engines are significantly less prone to ingesting birds. Here's an article from Transport Canada about the issue:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/AerodromeAirNav/Standards/WildlifeControl/bulletins/AWMB18.htm

The article states that, "In a study of 4.3 million aircraft movements (landings or takeoffs), underwing mounted engines ingested birds 4.4 times more often than tail mounted engines of the same size and make using the same airports. Larger engines also ingested birds more often than smaller engines."


The last part is also a factor, because the smaller engines on corporate jets have a smaller frontal area, and are thus less likely to take a bird.


Hope that helps!

 

[jonjuan]

Yes, but it doesn't lessen the probability of taking a goose through the windscreen.

The following is a collection of birdstrike events since 1905 when Orville Wright hit a bird. There are both commercial and private aircraft involved (a few Citation 550/560s and aft mounted Challenger aircraft as well).

http://www.birdstrike.org/commlink/signif.htm

 

[Diesel]

I took a goose through the engine on an ultra. I'm not sure which was bigger the goose or the engine.

I saw the belly go by the window and my partner ducked. (goose).

Went in squarely in the engine. No dings on the cowling or anything except for some blood splatter and the smell of thanksgiving you wouldn't have known we had hit it.

We returned to LNK, damn that sucked. We had already spent 4 days there in the winter.

 

[Nolife]

I remember a few years ago one of the ad hoc lost a falcon 20 to a double bird strike. Crew ditched in a field just beyond the runway and lived. Sure bigger engines means more engine area exposed but flying through a flock of geese will hurt any airplane.

Tower called an abort for me once in BOS due to an observant controller spotting a large flock on the runway as I started my take off roll. I owe that guy several cases of beer.

 

[NJAowner]

Because of their size I take it geese are worse than seagulls?

 

[fischman]

Both will kill an engine, but I would think Newton's laws of motion dictate the bigger the bird, the more damage will occur.

NJA Owner, I don't know what fleet(s) you fly on, but I know that the Ultra and XL (only Cessna's I've flown) have speed limitations below 8000 ft due to a higher possibility of bird strikes at lower altitudes (262 KIAS and 260 KIAS respectively). I think the engineers were more worried about the birds hitting the windshields than the engines.

USUALLY a bird strike is nothing more than an inconvenience. In my limited experience compared to "Sully" I have had 3 bird strikes with little or no damage done to the airplane.

The passengers on that flight need to go buy lotto tickets NOW. I wonder if another crew was in that cockpit if the results would have been what they were? The chances of ingesting birds in both engines are astronomical. The chances of having a ditch an airliner with no fatalities is even greater. In my opinion, Sully and his crew proved a "no-win" situation is possible. My hat is off to them.

I have never trained on how to ditch a plane, but I have dead-sticked a landing back in primary training (jets only in the simulator). Hopefully Jim Gorman, NetJets VP of training (who was hired from USAir last year), will be able to get AQP up and running soon so we can train situations like this. If you would have told me I should train for this last week, I would have told you that you were crazy.

 

[-FlyAuburn-]

Because of their size I take it geese are worse than seagulls?

Infinitely worse. I know someone who hit 8 seagulls in a King Air and suffered minor damage to several parts of the airplane. Had they been geese it would have been a different story. They are much bigger, heavier, and denser birds.

 

[Bronco Buster]

A mature, male Canada Goose weighs about 12 pounds and the females go about eight pounds. Turkey buzzards are also bad ju ju. I remember about 20 years back the Air Force lost a KC135 in Alaska due to multiple Canada Goose strikes on takeoff (can"t remember if they took out 3 or all 4 engines, but the whole crew got killed.

 

[CA1900]

In my opinion, Sully and his crew proved a "no-win" situation is possible...

We have to get you some new movies for your collection. :laugh:

 

[captfred]

It was an AWACS that was lost in Alaska.

 

[fischman]

We have to get you some new movies for your collection. :laugh:

"You still remember my old friend. I can not help but to be touched."

I watched it this morning in honor of Khan's passing.

Having said that, you're probably right. :erm:

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

That was us, and it was our best Falcon 20. They hit a flock of birds right after rotation, I think they were starlings, which are bad because they have a higher bone density than most other birds.

The rwy was only about 5,000' long, so by the time they figured out BOTH engines were winding down, they were past the end of the runway. They set it down in a cornfield. The FO had minor cuts and abrasions. The a/c was destroyed because it went over a raised road, which sent it back into the air, and it re-landed partially on it's tail, which cracked the fuselage in half.

cliff
GRB

 

[FLYLOW22]

We have to get you some new movies for your collection. :laugh:

Sully just doesn't like to lose. The Kobayashi Maru was just not an option.

 

[Mike Jenvey]

The Hawker 800 XP/XPC (so I assume the H750??) also have a speed limitation due to windscreen/birds - 280 kts below 8000 ft with screen heat working (257 kts if the heat is off for any reason).

Across here in Europe, the only major bird strike I'm aware of for a biz jet was this one, unfortunately both pilots killed.

However, Nov 2008 saw a B737 "downed" by birds at Rome, both engines out - it happened on short finals, so they made the runway. I saw the airframe a few weeks afterwards, & counted over 25 hits just on the port wing/engine alone!! The birds were starlings - main problem is that they flock in their thousands - some mini-pics here. Google Images/YouTube have some very impressive results.

Knew some of the guys on this one - a military maritime recce 4-engined jet - hit geese taking off in Scotland; unfortunately they crashed into trees, so 2 fatalities.

 

[Some guy]

A mature, male Canada Goose weighs about 12 pounds and the females go about eight pounds. Turkey buzzards are also bad ju ju. I remember about 20 years back the Air Force lost a KC135 in Alaska due to multiple Canada Goose strikes on takeoff (can"t remember if they took out 3 or all 4 engines, but the whole crew got killed.

Two engines. I was stationed at Elmendorf at the time. Very sad time.
http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/5464/

 

[Flying Biker]

Back in April of 08, a Challenger 604 here at KCOS struck at least 2 pelicans just after takeoff. One of the birds actually entered the cockpit below the windscreen and penetrated through the pressure bulkhead, the other went into the left engine. A friend of mine was at the airport just after it happened and was telling me how these guys were covered in pelican blood. From the NTSB report, it sounds like the left engine got tore up pretty good, but they elected to keep it running due to their weight, temp, and elevation of the airport. From what it sounds like these guys were able to keep a level head and overt a disaster. Here is the NTSB report.

 

[jonjuan]

Back in April of 08, a Challenger 604 here at KCOS struck at least 2 pelicans just after takeoff. One of the birds actually entered the cockpit below the windscreen and penetrated through the pressure bulkhead, the other went into the left engine. A friend of mine was at the airport just after it happened and was telling me how these guys were covered in pelican blood. From the NTSB report, it sounds like the left engine got tore up pretty good, but they elected to keep it running due to their weight, temp, and elevation of the airport. From what it sounds like these guys were able to keep a level head and overt a disaster. Here is the NTSB report.

I have seen pics of that one showing blood in the cockpit. Very eerie looking.

 

[o2bflyn]

First -- today's episode shows the importance of well trained and experienced pilots.

Now I know little about the mechanics of flying and aero engineering, but do apply some logic. Does the location of the jets on a corporate jet (on the tail section) reduce the chance of a bird strike? I would guess that since the engine is not hanging out on a wing, far away from the fuselage, but close to the fuselage, that the fuselage would help disperse many birds before they hit the jet engine. Is this the case?

Thanks.

Not sure what the stats are but I will offer a personal story.

I took 2 sandhill cranes coming out of Vero Beach in an XL a couple years ago. Had just rotated and took one on the underside of the nose and one took out the right main gear door. Just some dents, blood, guts, beaks, and a missing gear door. If an engine was slung under the wing, it more than likely would have hit it.

I admit that is a matter of coincidence where the birds hit, but that is one time I was glad to have the engines up on the tail.

 

[learflyer]

Why don't they make Bird Seperators on engines anymore? Performance penalty? My Sabreliner had them.