News story on SLI NWA and Delta

[JohnQ]

deleted by poster

 

[AirportBum]

Sounds Fantastic guys! Keep it going.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Dude, I can feel your blood pressure rising post by post. Maybe you should (gasp!) turn off the computer until December 8th. This can't be good for you.

Also looking forward to this being finished.

 

[nwaf16dude]

Well, I disagree, of course, regarding the the staple of 400 NWA guys to the bottom of the list, but that was not the main point of my post. My main point is that DALPA's party-line, inflexible strategy and lack of humility will not serve them well in this arbitration. There are plenty of pieces of your proposal that are clearly problematic for the NWA guys, and DAL refuses to admit to any of them or address them in their proposal or follow-up testimony. NWA presented DOH and admitted that it might be problematic. They then addressed the problem with Fences that are designed to protect the DAL guys from the effects of DOH. DAL's fences are nearly worthless to the NWA guys. First of all, they start at DCC instead of SOC. Since SOC is 12-18 months away, and there is no cross bidding til SOC, there is 12-18 months on nothing from your fences. Your three year fences effectively turn into 1.5-2 year fences that expire at the peak of NWA's retirement season, effectively insuring that nwa A-330 jobs will quickly transfer to former DAL guys. The five year fences are slightly better, but the net effect will be the same.

Now, I get to go single seat single engine flying today, so I'm leaving this argument for now. Good luck with the blood pressure.

 

[General Lee]

Well, I disagree, of course, regarding the the staple of 400 NWA guys to the bottom of the list, but that was not the main point of my post. My main point is that DALPA's party-line, inflexible strategy and lack of humility will not serve them well in this arbitration. There are plenty of pieces of your proposal that are clearly problematic for the NWA guys, and DAL refuses to admit to any of them or address them in their proposal or follow-up testimony. NWA presented DOH and admitted that it might be problematic. They then addressed the problem with Fences that are designed to protect the DAL guys from the effects of DOH. DAL's fences are nearly worthless to the NWA guys. First of all, they start at DCC instead of SOC. Since SOC is 12-18 months away, and there is no cross bidding til SOC, there is 12-18 months on nothing from your fences. Your three year fences effectively turn into 1.5-2 year fences that expire at the peak of NWA's retirement season, effectively insuring that nwa A-330 jobs will quickly transfer to former DAL guys. The five year fences are slightly better, but the net effect will be the same.

Now, I get to go single seat single engine flying today, so I'm leaving this argument for now. Good luck with the blood pressure.

You have to remember that a lot of DL people don't want to fly most of your planes, especially the DC9s. And I don't see many wanting to move to MSP or DTW, and I hear 70% of your pilots commute from DTW. As far as fences go, I would think most NWA people want off the small equipment that is prevalent at NWA (fewer widebodies meaning less pay). Look at the pent up seniority for the greenbooks forexample. How many of those super senior guys have not bid up to widebody because there were lack of displacement bids, lack of retirements? They all can't wait to "get what their seniority can hold." The Roberts Award was NOT OUR FAULT. We should have more fences on our equipment, since your list is lopsided with smaller planes that pay less. If we had an equal number of planes the same size, then that would be great. Our 757s pay as much as our 767s, and we have a ton of them. You have a lot of DC9s (and you say you are keeping more....), and they pay the least. Over half of our planes pay "premium"---and about 1/3 of yours do. Can you see my point yet?

You say Dalpa is inflexible. So, we should give in to your demands? Let's look at what each is bringing to the table, and how you just got a nice raise, got better rules, and most of you have a frozen pension. We have more widebodies, more bases, and more growth coming up here with orders that will come to fruition. I think we derserve more, and you guys should be a bit more thankful. Your life has gotten a lot better even before the SLI award.

Go have fun flying that single seat fighter, and my blood pressure is fine. Reading the actual testimony from the hearings makes me feel better.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Dude, I can feel your blood pressure rising post by post. Maybe you should (gasp!) turn off the computer until December 8th. This can't be good for you.

Also looking forward to this being finished.

Feeling just fine.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[DTW320]

Dude, I can feel your blood pressure rising post by post. Maybe you should (gasp!) turn off the computer until December 8th. This can't be good for you.

Also looking forward to this being finished.

It's pretty hilarious isn't it? Imagine what his posting content/frequency will be on 12/7! Hope the FI servers don't crash.

 

[NuGuy]

It's pretty hilarious isn't it? Imagine what his posting content/frequency will be on 12/7! Hope the FI servers don't crash.

You can almost see his bottom lip quivering....

Nu

 

[clippyrip]

my blood pressure is fine. Reading the actual testimony from the hearings makes me feel better.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Really? Judging by the amount of times you post, it looks like you are trying to convince others in an attempt to convince yourself.

Riddle me this: When the arbitrators tell each group that they are not going to get their initial position, and only one group presents alternate ideas while the other group sticks its feet in the sand, which one seems more likely to get a positive result?

 

[clippyrip]

You can almost see his bottom lip quivering....

Nu

Wait till the decision on Dec 8th, then his eye will have that tick like Inspector Clusoes boss from Pink Panther.

 

[General Lee]

Really? Judging by the amount of times you post, it looks like you are trying to convince others in an attempt to convince yourself.

Riddle me this: When the arbitrators tell each group that they are not going to get their initial position, and only one group presents alternate ideas while the other group sticks its feet in the sand, which one seems more likely to get a positive result?

There is just a lot of info to post, I have run out of time. Great testimony. You really need to read the testimony to answer your riddle.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Schwanker]

Why was it your guys who were asked to provide an alternate plan (dynamic seniority) while insisting DOH with 10 year fences was still their position? If things were the way you believe, it seems like our guys would have been asked (told) to present an alternate plan as well. During the hearings your guys basically said, "our position is still DOH but if we can't get that, dynamic seniority would be better than the DL position." WTF? The DL attorney was going to cross on dynamic seniority when the arbitrator basically told him "no need". I can't see the arbitrators granting a dynamic list that basically separates the groups for 15 years and starts with 3000 DL guys on the bottom.

The two sides spent a couple weeks negotiating under mediation in DC. Do you really think our side didn't move because of fear of retribution? I guarantee there was movement by both sides but obviously not enough to get a deal. I haven't seen our guys waiver in public position however, which indicates a confidence in that position to me.

Noserider,
Is is possible this is where the mediated negotiations were heading? Is it possible DALPA couldn't "agree" to this negotiated settlement to save face with there membership? Is it possible this was a way to introduce it in arbitration so it could be a method to award the new list? Is it possible the dynamic was basically agreed to in mediated negotiations, but the category/ratio positions were not quite ironed out? Dec 8 just may answer these questions to the affirmative.

You asked, "Do you really think our side didn't move because of fear of retribution?"
Answer: Yes, it is quite possible your side did not want to give the appearance of caving.

Best,
Schwanker

 

[michael707767]

=Riddle me this: When the arbitrators tell each group that they are not going to get their initial position, and only one group presents alternate ideas while the other group sticks its feet in the sand, which one seems more likely to get a positive result?

if the arbitrators do their job, it should not matter where either side is with their proposal. Fair is fair. ALPA policy is ALPA policy. The list the arbitrators come up with should be independant of what either side wants.

If the arbitrators somehow use the award to punish one side or the other for not moving off thier position, they have not done thier jobs.

 

[Noserider76]

Noserider,
Is is possible this is where the mediated negotiations were heading? Is it possible DALPA couldn't "agree" to this negotiated settlement to save face with there membership? Is it possible this was a way to introduce it in arbitration so it could be a method to award the new list? Is it possible the dynamic was basically agreed to in mediated negotiations, but the category/ratio positions were not quite ironed out? Dec 8 just may answer these questions to the affirmative.

You asked, "Do you really think our side didn't move because of fear of retribution?"
Answer: Yes, it is quite possible your side did not want to give the appearance of caving.

Best,
Schwanker

Anything is possible. Both sides spent hours under mediation with the arbitrators and only one side was asked to present an alternate proposal. From the reaction of the DL attorney to the dynamic list I'd say it and the methods the NW side used to achieve it weren't too well thought of on this side. Why 15 years?

I also believe our side is much more worried about getting a fair deal done for both sides than the appearance of caving. Moak is a Marine. He's used to making the hard decisions. By all accounts we weren't that far off an agreement on ratios several times in this process. He's just not willing to sign off on something blatantly unfair in the name of unity.

I happen to believe we'll all be better off with a single list that takes all issues into account. You'll share some of your earlier retirements, we'll share some bigger equipment and later retirements, and we'll all be exposed to some older smaller equipment. My opinion only here but this is a horse trade. You have a few more earlier retirements and 787s. In return for sharing those you get guys on 757s and 767s (higher pay) who were going to be -9 and 320 guys for a long time, new bases, and to split the downside if any older equipment is dispatched.

If the dynamic list is the answer though, it needs to last as long as the most junior guy on both properties to be remotely fair.

 

[General Lee]

Noserider,
Is is possible this is where the mediated negotiations were heading? Is it possible DALPA couldn't "agree" to this negotiated settlement to save face with there membership? Is it possible this was a way to introduce it in arbitration so it could be a method to award the new list? Is it possible the dynamic was basically agreed to in mediated negotiations, but the category/ratio positions were not quite ironed out? Dec 8 just may answer these questions to the affirmative.

You asked, "Do you really think our side didn't move because of fear of retribution?"
Answer: Yes, it is quite possible your side did not want to give the appearance of caving.

Best,
Schwanker

Caving? You guys aren't providing reliable information. Like this cute memo for Dave Stevens:

Turning to tab 26, there is a
17 question about a number of pilots that are
18 going to be furloughed by Northwest on a
19 stand-alone basis.
20 Can you tell me what tab 26 tells
21 us?
22 A. Yes. This is a copy of an e-mail
23 that was provided to the Delta MEC
24 administration by Delta management. And what
25 the e-mail states is that if you start at the

2 bottom, you see that Mr. Becker of labor
3 relations at Northwest asked if the pilots
4 received specific aircraft type and numbers.
5 When you read the message it says
6 "yes" several times. And the important point
7 is the fifth line down, estimated 250 to 300
8 furloughs.
9 Q. That's really all I have on that.
10 Just let's get the date in the record. That
11 e-mail exchange was in June of 2008?
12 A. Yes, the e-mail was in June and in
13 the first line it says, "Approximately one
14 month ago I advised Dave Stevens of the
15 pending cuts in flying levels, including the
16 fact that approximately 15 to 20 757s and
17 A-320s would be sold. Two weeks ago in a
18 conference call with the MEC officers and
19 negotiating committee we gave them more
20 specifics, including selling 14 aircraft; 10
21 757s and four A-320s, and estimated 250 to 300
22 furloughs."

Answering "I don't recall" when asked about possible furloughs makes it real tough. Yeah, I guess we should cave.....


Bye Bye---General Lee