Need to get an ATP certificate

[Pattern-Master]

I'm looking for a no nonsense place to do my ATP rating. I was thinking of "ATP" in Jacksonville. Anybody use them and how are the DPE's there. I want to make this as quick and painless as possible. Thanks.

 

[avbug]

You've been flying an EMB-145 and a Beechjet, and have no ATP?

 

[Pattern-Master]

No, the airlines will not issue an ATP when you complete your SIC training. And I fly right seat on Beechjet no need for ATP. I need an ATP so I can start applying to fractionals, that's all.

 

[BWatz]

Look into accessible aviation. I am in the same boat as you and I have heard good things about them. The cost seems to be a little better than all ATPs.

 

[avbug]

Again...at 3,000 hours, simply because no one gave you an ATP...why arrive at this point after flying advanced equipment and not have it?

Moreover, why seek out a speciality place to obtain the ATP? It's an instrument checkride. Rent a twin, take the ATP checkride, and you're done. It's not rocket science; it's the same checkride you'll have undergone when doing a SIC type.

Several years ago at a fractional operator, a young man was recommended by several to upgrade. I was present when he arrived to begin training. I was as surprised as anyone to learn that not only did he not have his ATP, but that he didn't have the knowledge ("written") exam done either. No regulation required him to get it, but the general consensus among many at the time was that getting that far into his career and not arriving at the gate prepared to go spoke poorly for him.

Point is, go ahead and get it done, but at 3,000 hours and several advanced aircraft later, to be looking for the ATP now in order to apply to jobs...is a little behind the curve.

 

[BWatz]

Most guys seem to get their ATP when they upgrade. I don't see anything wrong with that. Financially speaking, it does make more sense.. I just now meet the experience requirements to apply for a fractional. Trouble is, I am not competitive in todays market.

Most flight schools wont let you just rent a twin due to insurance... In my research, you are better off going to a place that has an ATP program in place.. (cheaper) Just my opinion on what I have seen.

 

[PURPLEHAZE21]

When you get hired with 300 hours...that's what you get. Different generation !!!!!!!!!!!

 

[BWatz]

Didn't get hired with 300 hours. I came over to the regionals after being a CFI and flying freight. Nice generalization though.

 

[landlover]

why pay for a ATP when you can get it for free? Thats how I did it. Not a bad plan. Lots of people do it that way.

 

[MauleSkinner]

It's not rocket science; it's the same checkride you'll have undergone when doing a SIC type.

An SIC type doesn't require a checkride...basically just document the same 61.55 copilot training we've been doing for years (systems, 3 T&L's, CRM, Engine-out maneuvering, IIRC) slightly diffrerently, and take it to the Fed Shed to get the rating issued.

ATP is the same as the PIC type rating.

Personally, I didn't get my ATP until I had in excess of 3000 hours, and it was required by the company...didn't need it, didn't want it. Didn't seem to reflect nearly as badly on me as the tailwheel and glider time I had.

Fly safe!

David

 

[svcta]

Why pay for a rating that someone else will pay for when they type you? I'm with you, Mr. Original Poster. But don't sweat the checkride, it should be easy. That part Avbug got right.

 

[avbug]

An SIC type doesn't require a checkride...basically just document the same 61.55 copilot training we've been doing for years (systems, 3 T&L's, CRM, Engine-out maneuvering, IIRC) slightly diffrerently, and take it to the Fed Shed to get the rating issued.

I'm well aware of that. But not at an airline. An airline doesn't simply train to three bounces and let a pilot go. A pilot has been trained to, and performs at the same level, as that required for the type, and most places the SIC checkride is essentially the same as a PIC checkride.

Generally one can't simply take evidence of the SIC ride to the FAA to obtain an ATP. One will need to demonstrate for the ATP with a dedicated practical test.

However, again, if one is waiting until one has three thousand hours and then seeks the ATP in order to bolster one's resume, one is behind the curve. Regardless, go take the checkride, rent an airplane and set up the ride with the FAA or a designated examiner, and take the practical test. It's not a big deal.

 

[say again]

Wow Avbug, I never knew that getting my ATP at 3600 hrs put me behind the "curve". I guess I'm lucky that my career has progressed nicely, even prior to the almighty ATP.
Give the guy a break, not everyone needs an ATP at 1500 hrs. I flight instructed until I had 2100 hrs and worked at ACA til 3600 hr- so where was the need for the ATP?? After my furlough, I was hired by a company flying a BE30 AND they paid for my ATP/type-rating.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I'm well aware of that. But not at an airline.

I don't see any reason to assume that SIC qualification at an airline necessarily results in an SIC type rating. Did they change the 121/135 regs as well?

 

[avbug]

Airlines generally issue a SIC type today, if not the PIC type. Some erroneously call the PIC type a "captain type."

Regardless of whether any rating is issued, point is that airlines don't simply do three bounces and call it good. Training generally covers the same material, and is often done to the same standard. One really shouldn't be there anyway unless one can perform to the ATP standard.

One cannot take the paperwork from one's proficiency or sim check and simply obtain an ATP, even documenting the actions taken or performed in the simulator or in an oral. However, the practical test is adequate preparation for one who intends to go elsewhere to obtain the rating.

I've taken many checkrides, including early in my career, during which the ATP could easily have been done. However, when I had adequate experience, I obtained the ATP on my own. One who is interested in furthering his qualifications and making himself more marketable might certainly take it upon himself to lift a finger to further his qualifications, rather than waiting for another to give it to him.

Wow Avbug, I never knew that getting my ATP at 3600 hrs put me behind the "curve".

Well, now you know.

I flight instructed until I had 2100 hrs and worked at ACA til 3600 hr- so where was the need for the ATP?? After my furlough, I was hired by a company flying a BE30 AND they paid for my ATP/type-rating.

You were fortunate. A pilot today who is attempting to make himself marketable in a market which is flooded with overqualified applicants, the majority of whom hold an ATP and a degree, is far behind the curve. A little like the parable of Christ's five virgins who failed to buy oil for their lamp...waiting for the wedding party to come by isn't the time to start looking for that lamp oil, and waiting for the job market to collapse isn't the time to start attempting to get qualified.

The "I don't need it so I won't get it" mentality is lazy at best, and apathetic and slow. It's the mentality of procrastination. Nothing stopped you from obtaining your ATP while you worked for ATA...you simply elected not to do so.

I worked for years gaining experience as a mechanic, as well as flying. With adequate experience, I tested for, and obtained, my mechanic certificate (A&P). Nobody paid me to do it, and I didn't "need it." In the years since, however, it's been put to use many times, has brought jobs to my door, has made jobs pay more because of the extra qualifications, and has given me work when the flying was scarce. It's one such example. The ATP is another...but the ATP for a pilot, even though you may not have a flying position requiring the ATP to be legal...is as much a "should have" and a "must have" as anything.

If you have the hours and the experience to qualify, there's really no excuse for not obtaining it.

When I obtained mine, I certainly didn't "need" it. I was flying single engine airplanes in the back country in decidedly very-VFR operations. Never the less, posession of the ATP opened other doors, and has continued to do so until today, when my work does require it.

The attitude of doing and obtaining the bare minimum until someone hands it to you is a poor one, indeed.

 

[BWatz]

Then again.. You have to remember it did not take 3 grand to get an ATP back then.

 

[avbug]

Three grand? Three thousand dollars, or three thousand hours? Then neither was required.

Today, neither is required.

Rent an airplane, take the practical test. Hardly three thousand.

Last year a particular employer that screens pilots in light twins for a job that is decidely not light twins, called me to show up for a flight screening. I arrived a day early, rented a light twin for a couple of hours, and prepared and at the same time regained currency in a light, piston twin. It cost me a few dollars. The next day I took the screening flight, passed, was offered a position.

You can easily do the same. Rent a light twin, spend an hour or two getting familiar if you like, then go fly the maneuvers for the ATP as part of the practical test. It certainly won't cost three "grand," nor does it require three thousand hours of experience to do. It's a simple, instrument checkride, for crying out loud.

 

[BWatz]

I am not going to argue with you, but I think you are a little off on this one. No where did I say it takes 3 thousand hours to meet the experience requirements for an ATP certificate.. No one on this thread has said the ATP checkride is anything more than an instrument checkride.. We get it. We all understand. The PTS says it all. No need spending all of this time hashing it out.

 

[avbug]

Very well. So, again, what do you mean by "Then again.. You have to remember it did not take 3 grand to get an ATP back then."?

No where did I say it takes 3 thousand hours to meet the experience requirements for an ATP certificate..

No, you didn't explain yourself at all. By all means, do so.

 

[BWatz]

Its not worth arguing about. I think you misunderstood what I said as an attack on you. Good luck to you

 

[Flyby1206]

For those of you still reading the thread and looking for an ATP try John Trask in PQI. His contact info is at the bottom of the page. He does a 1day course in a Seneca, total cost $2030. I went up there not having touched a GA airplane in 4+ yrs and everything went smoothly. Great guy, great checkride, cheap price. PM me with any questions.

 

[avbug]

Two thousand dollars for a Seneca in one day?

PT Barnum was right.

 

[nosehair]

For those of you still reading the thread and looking for an ATP

Nobody still reading this thread is looking for an ATP. we're just watching the girlfight.imp:

 

[landlover]

Two thousand dollars for a Seneca in one day?

PT Barnum was right.

i have no knowledge of said recommendation, but let's take a look at it.

examiner fee is at least $350 (more like $500 for an atp ride in most areas)

2 hours of flight time@ $300 an hour for the check ride.

that leaves around $1000 for 3 hours of prep in the airplane with an instructor. seems to add up to me?

 

[Princedietrich]

Last year a particular employer that screens pilots in light twins for a job that is decidely not light twins, called me to show up for a flight screening. I arrived a day early, rented a light twin for a couple of hours, and prepared and at the same time regained currency in a light, piston twin. It cost me a few dollars. The next day I took the screening flight, passed, was offered a position.

Oh my God, everyone run for cover! AVBUG BECAME A FED!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!

Hehe, just kidding. :beer:

 

[svcta]

Avbug usually has good knowledge and facts to back him up. Usually he is informative and interesting, though lacking in tact or people skills. We now see how he acts when defending an opinion. Avbug, yours and theirs are are just that. Relax a little.

As for me, I waited until my first type ride to get the ATP. Someone else was paying for it (the way nature intended) and it never held me back to that point. If you're in the airline world, wait for upgrade. If you're on the corporate side, then you should be getting typed with any reasonable amount of experience, so it raises another question in my mind.

 

[avbug]

As we pass from a brief era of record hiring, we're going to see a lot of 300 hour wonders that entered the artificial airline world suddenly facing reality, looking for work. That may or may not be the case here, and it really doesn't matter.

Those who find themself on the chopping block looking for work, and find that they've failed to gain the qualifications necessary to be competitive when they had the chance, find themselves far behind the curve. Pure and simple. Presently there are plenty of highly qualified people seeking work.

You bet. If you think you won't be furloughed, and think you'll have the opportunity to wait for someone to give you your ATP, then go for it...if you can be assured you won't be stuck looking for work underqualified and without it. By all means.

Clearly that's not the case here, however, is it?

 

[Flyby1206]

As for me, I waited until my first type ride to get the ATP. Someone else was paying for it (the way nature intended) and it never held me back to that point. If you're in the airline world, wait for upgrade. If you're on the corporate side, then you should be getting typed with any reasonable amount of experience, so it raises another question in my mind.

Unfortunately, this isnt a scenario everyone has the luck to be a part of. After 4 years and 3500 hrs in the right seat I am still only about halfway to upgrade at my current regional carrier. With downsizing, parking a/c, and furloughs in the near future it is time to get serious about making myself competitive for another job.

 

[svcta]

You bet. If you think you won't be furloughed, and think you'll have the opportunity to wait for someone to give you your ATP, then go for it...if you can be assured you won't be stuck looking for work underqualified and without it. By all means.

Clearly that's not the case here, however, is it?

That reads like my last AFM revision. Say what?

The scenario as it started out in this case was that there was a guy that needs an ATP to be competitive where he wants to apply. You scolded him for not having it yet, as if it were a prerequisite
for something. At this point in time he can and should go ahead and get the rating because at this precise point in time it has become necessary. Easy fix. Before now what was wrong with hedging the bet a little and waiting for the chance to pair it with a sim ride? I don't see any point in raking the guy over the coals about it. It's worked out for tons of people to wait, just as it did for me.

In your own words, the ride should be easy and accomplished in a few hours. Makes sense to me to wait for it to become necessary before dropping the dough.

 

[JAFI]

Remember that when you take your ATP ride you are the PIC. You say "I know that #%@* "
In my experience, one of the biggest problems for some one who has sat as co-pilot for a while is that they have not made the "big decisions" for a while and need to get back in that mind set to be able to act as PIC again. I would say over half of the exams that failed were because - no one was in command-. It gets worse the longer you are only the SIC.

If you feel you need some help for the exam, go get it. If you feel you are ready, go rent an aircraft and find an examiner.

Other than the knowledge and experience of getting an ATP the only time you legally "need" one is if you are to haul people in air carrier service.