Engine flameout...restart or no?

[d328pilot]

If you are level in cruise and have a sudden engine flameout with no suspected damage and you are about 30 minutes from a suitable alternate airport, would you elect to attempt a restart or just continue on one engine?

 

[Junkflyer]

Simple answer: restart. Single engine go-arounds are too much work.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Why did it fail? Is there damage suspected?

N1 Rotation?

Fire indications?

Oil pressure?

Loud bang/vibration?

If damage, don't start it.

 

[cargoflyr69]

Why are we posting this in the "majors" forum. Don't we all have established procedures for if/when this happens?

Shooting from the hip, I'd say follow your COM/QRH and do exactly what is says. If unclear consult with your MX control.

If you were not in a 121 environment and didn't have that CRM to fall back on I'd do what the above poster suggested... why did it fail? loud bang, n1 loss, vibration, etc. If no signs of anything bad happened and you are in the relight envelope, then try to light it up! because, like the other guy said, single engine go arounds are no fun!

 

[sstearns2]

You want to be careful about trying a relight at altitude. The CRJ-200 max altitude to try a relight is 21000 feet. Any higher and you'll probably toast the hot section. I think trying to relight the engines too high is one problem that the pinnicle guys had.

Scott

 

[imacdog]

No the Pinnacle guys seized their engines when they stalled, there was no possibility of a restart after that.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Depends. If you can make an airport with one do it. If you need it light it. For ETOPS guys every failed relight goes against your companies ETOPS score card, hence the reason that most operators do not want you to attempt a relight unless it is necessary.

 

[Lebowski]

No the Pinnacle guys seized their engines when they stalled, there was no possibility of a restart after that.

Actually, if memory serves correctly, the Pinnacle crew flamed out both engines during a wing stall after a non-standard climb and non-standard level off at FL410. They tried a conventional restart using APU bleed air, but failed to establish APU bleed air to the engines due to some confusion with APU/LCV interlock switch on that type. They then attempted a windmilling start, but never got the speed required for the relight envelope, and that is when they essentially melted the engine cores or got "core locked." At THAT point, that's when there was no possiblity of a restart.

If I am remember correctly, the 21,000 altitude limitation mentioned by the previous poster is simply part of the windmilling relight envelope, not an absolute limit on attempting a restart. I forget the altitude limit for using APU bleed air for a restart in the CRJ-200, but I think it's higher than that. Nor did the engines seize directly as a result of the wing stall or the engine stall, as you suggest.

Someone else more familiar with the details may correct me or add to this, but I think this is a more accurate summary of what happened with the Pinnacle flight.

And by the way, since this is a sensitve issue, I am not knocking Pinnacle or the flight crew involved in this accident. Just trying to clear it up.

I also agree 100% with the previous posters who said to simply refer to your company's specific procedures. In lieu of those, use common sense. If damage is suspected, why risk a restart? If damage is not suspected, why not?

 

[Colonel Savage]

Core lock occurs at very cold altitudes shortly after the flame out itself, due to uneven cooling of the core components. This contraction causes binding of the components and too much friction to overcome w/start procedures.

Because the PCL crew was in an unpowered decent, there was not enough time at the lower altitudes for the core to warm back up and free itself, so the subsequent start attempts at lower altitudes failed also.

 

[Mach 80]

There is a debate among some of us in re-current training. Basicly we can either fight an engine fire after take-off after we get the plane cleaned up at 1,000' AGL or we have the option that if the plane is well under control, start at 400' AGL. Am curious what other carriers do in this regard. The schools of thought are that by waiting till 1,000 you may be getting some residual thrust from the buring engine versus by starting at 400' you get the fire out earlier.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

I know what my airline would say (the stock answer for everything) : "Captain's discretion!"

 

[pianoman]

There is a debate among some of us in re-current training. Basicly we can either fight an engine fire after take-off after we get the plane cleaned up at 1,000' AGL or we have the option that if the plane is well under control, start at 400' AGL. Am curious what other carriers do in this regard. The schools of thought are that by waiting till 1,000 you may be getting some residual thrust from the buring engine versus by starting at 400' you get the fire out earlier.

Wow. Re-starting an engine at 400' AGL? Maybe if you're blasting off out of someplace in Iowa with nothing to hit, but anywhere else I would think you'd be a little busy trying to avoid obstacles and hold V2 on one engine to be fu*(ing around trying to get it started again that low.

Just my 2 cents. Let the sucker burn to 1000.

Also in the real world, if you're not aware beforehand it's going to happen, you're going to spend at least the first 30 seconds figuring out what to do with the other crewmember.

 

[FatesPawn]

There is a debate among some of us in re-current training. Basicly we can either fight an engine fire after take-off after we get the plane cleaned up at 1,000' AGL or we have the option that if the plane is well under control, start at 400' AGL. Am curious what other carriers do in this regard. The schools of thought are that by waiting till 1,000 you may be getting some residual thrust from the buring engine versus by starting at 400' you get the fire out earlier.

Yeah, that sounds exactly like the type of discussions instructors and checkairmen stay up nights debating to themselves. Then they show up for ground school and start espousing their academia.

400? 1000? Who gives a rats ass? Seriously.

You probably missed both and are totally off profile.

Your engine probably did not fail, but something is burning like a loose fuel line or hydraulics.

Any number of possibilities exist, but this sounds EXACTLY like the type of minutia training departments get wrapped up in, so debate away!!!

-fate

 

[blzr]

If your ignition switch is on and you have a flameout due to WX or turbulance shouln't the engine relight? Doubtful your N2 has gone below 20% and there would still be fuel going to the burner can, it should relight. If it doesn't, fly the plane first and then deal with the problem when you have gotten to a safe altitude.

 

[Mach 80]

>>>Re-starting an engine at 400' AGL? <<<

No. Not re-starting. I don't believe I'd re-start an engine where there was a fire warning. Did you read my post? Doing things like pulling the thrust lever to idle and start lever to cut-off -- the idea to reduce fire damage or possible catastrophic incident sooner than waiting till 1,000' AGL. If you were sitting by the engine seeing a roaring fire raging, maybe you'd prefer something done at 400' rather than 1,000'.