Obstacle departure

[HOURBUILDER]

If you have a runway with an obstacle departure depicted in your Jepps the following way:

RWY 24 : climb runway heading - at 2100 turn on course.

what if you are given a heading prior to reaching 2100 feet can you turn or wait until you reach 2100 feet.

thanks

 

[ballsdeep123]

You can turn. A DP is only for when you're in a non radar environment.

 

[HOURBUILDER]

thanks

 

[JAFI]

You may want the reason for the "climb to 2100 then turn to course". Where is the obsticle in relation to the airport (heading-distance). Your turn clearance may be "when able, turn to XXX" - that does not mean at 30 feet you can turn to any heading.

The controler may get caught with "an operational error" and you may hit the hill/mountain/building etc.

 

[deadstick]

Instrument Procedures Handbook


page 2-24

Obstacle departure procedures are not assigned by ATC unless absolutely necessary to achieve aircraft separation. It is your responsibility to determine if there is an ODP published for that airport. If you are not given a clearance for a SID or radar vectors and an ODP exists, you must use the ODP. Additionally, ATC expects you to comply with the published procedure unless the weather at your departure airport lends itself to a departure under VFR conditions and you can see and avoid obstacles in the vicinity.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

ATC doesn't necessarily expect an aircraft to have degraded performance via an egine failure... if an engine quits it is the pilots job to find an obstacle cleared route.... usually runway heading, a company specific procedure or route or the ODP.

 

[ackattacker]

Obstacle departure procedures are not assigned by ATC unless absolutely necessary to achieve aircraft separation. It is your responsibility to determine if there is an ODP published for that airport. If you are not given a clearance for a SID or radar vectors and an ODP exists, you must use the ODP. Additionally, ATC expects you to comply with the published procedure unless the weather at your departure airport lends itself to a departure under VFR conditions and you can see and avoid obstacles in the vicinity.

Fixed the emphasis for ya. Radar Vectors override the ODP.

 

[deadstick]

The controler may get caught with "an operational error" and you may hit the hill/mountain/building etc.

Thanks for the help, ackattacker. You're a winner. However, it does seem that the people who wrote the procedure book had something to tell us AFTER the whole RV bit. That's why they chose to write "additionally."

It seems their intent is that if it's vmc and you can provide your own separation, then you can turn. Most times, by the time you check in with departure, you are done with the ODP. However, if the the tower tells you to "turn left to 180, cleared for takeoff" there is no separation and the ODP has to be followed.

 

[avbug]

Don't blindly make the assumption that you're free and clear with a radar turn when departing.

You could ask the crew of the learjet detailed in the following NTSB brief...but they won't be talking about it any time soon.

http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2006/AAB0605.pdf

The crew elected to ignore the ODP, and accepted a radar vector after departure, impacting terrain east of the airport. Know what's out there and why you're doing what you're doing.

Don't blindly accept that simply because you are cleared for something, your own responsibility is over. Remember that YOU need to be the one to decide whether to accept or reject the clearance in the first place. Let that sink in.

American Airlines Flight 965 crashed when the crew made several mistakes. Among them was misunderstanding a clearance and attempting to return to a fix they'd already passed...when that was never the intent. Accepting the clearance was the first act in a chain of acts which killed nearly everyone aboard.

Even in the case of Comair Flight 191, the crew received a clearance. They departed the wrong runway, of course, but felt reassured because they had a clearance. Merely receiving a clearance, right or wrong, does not obviate the requirement for the crew to remain situationally aware, and to be prepared to reject the clearance, heading, maneuver, departure, procedure, or anything else they know to be unsafe. Guess at where you are or what you're doing by blindly accepting a clearance, and you don't k now what's unsafe, because you don't know what's going on. Use headwork before departure. You may not get a second chance.

 

[ackattacker]

Not trying to be smug... just pointing out that per the original poster's question if you are radar contact and given an assigned heading then you are not obligated to follow the ODP. That's all.

The ntsb accident that avbug posted the aircraft departed VFR nonradar and was was supposed to be maintaining VFR when they impacted terrain.

 

[avbug]

The ntsb accident that avbug posted the aircraft departed VFR nonradar and was was supposed to be maintaining VFR when they impacted terrain.

The aircraft departed VFR non-radar in what should have been an IFR departure, and had received a radar heading by the controller prior to impact. They flew that heading to their deaths. The ODP would have provided adequate terrain coverage.

Regardless, the point is valid; know your terrain, know your departure, and remember that acceptance of a clearance should always be predicated on your ability to make the informed decision. Simply accepting the clearance because it's given, or as given, blindly, can get you killed.

 

[Say Again Over]

The controller that gave the "radar heading" said to maintain VFR, sounds like they screwed that one up!

 

[avbug]

As pilots, we accept responbility for our own mistakes. And we die for it.

The controller goes home at the end of the day. The pilot who fails to be aware and heads up does not.

 

[Say Again Over]

Well I see your point but we have to assume the approach controller thought they were already maintaining VFR in this instance, I'm not sure if the aircraft was outside of his airspace or simply below the minimum vectoring altitude, I hope you're not blaming the controller, I tried to open the link again but it didn't open, did the NTSB put any blame on the controller's phraseology? Let's not mix IFR clearance with VFR instructions.

 

[avbug]

I said nothing of blaming the controller. I said nothing of blaming anyone.

We can forget about the controller. It's the pilot that hits the hillside, the pilot that pays the price, and regardless of the semantics, it's the pilot who ultimately must make the decision to accept a clearance or not.

During an obstacle departure, if the controller issues vectors, the controller is taking responsibility for terrain separation. The controller is also issuing a clearance; the heading is the clearance. The pilot may deviate from the departure and accepts the clearance to that heading in so doing. Accordingly, the pilot also acknowledges that responsibility for terrain separation has been accepted by the controller.

A pilot always has a responsibility to determine if any clearance, be it altitude changes, headings, routings, or any other clearance, is safe...and has the responsibility to accept or reject it. One cannot reasonable make such a decision if one has only one side of the picture. If one blindly receives a heading and follows it, one is not deciding to accept the clearance based on any information other than the heading. Turn left, heading two seven zero. Okay. Turn left into that rock wall. Okay. Not the way to do business on a saturday night.

By the very nature of accepting a clearance, one is stipulating that one has evaluated the options, determined that the clearance will work, and is ratifying that decision by complying.

The pilot who takes an assigned heading and flies it into a hillside takes ultimate responsibility to be sure, because the buck stops here...at his death.

Blame? No. Ultimate price, ultimate responsibility, and the moral and legal obligation to make an informed (not blind) decision? Yes. It's all on the pilot. At all times. IFR or VFR. IMC or VMC. Just like see and avoid. Everybody else goes home at the end of the day. It's the decisions made in the cockpit that determine if anybody on board gets to do the same.

 

[Doc Holiday]

Avbug,

Were you born an *********************************** or did you work at it your whole life?

I personally believe you are a knowledgeable guy with some experience. You have some good points and references, I'll give you that. But why do you have to always reply to people like they are idiots? My personal favorite is all the cliches you use - "Everyone else goes home at the end of the day" - and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

 

[avbug]

Clearly you have nothing to contribute, then.