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135 Days Off

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stratman560

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 10, 2005
Posts
121
I am sure everyone on this forum is familiar with the 135.267 (f) which states that the certificate holder must allow for 13-24 hour periods of rest each quarter. I believe sometime back I was told that these rest periods cannot be retro-active and that they must be determined ahead of time. I'm sure this will boil over into a massive debate but does anybody have any cold hard facts on this? Thanks.
 
I believe "ahead of time" would be determined by notification; as long as you are aware before the designated rest period starts that it is one of your required rests, that would satisfy the reg.

This brings to mind a recent job offer I got, for a 135 operator, that offered 6 hard and 2 soft days a month - but that was basically a ruse, they wanted you whenever they needed you. I don't know if that's standard in this part of the industry, but if you compare to XOjet or NJA, or some of the better on-demand operations, I have some issues about that sort of policy. How do you have a life, not to mention how do you satisfy legal rest requirements?
 
Hi!

According to the legal counsel of the FAA, as well as court cases, for rest to occurr, you must know ahead of time, there can't be any "duties" associated with it (pager, answer phone, etc.), and your airline is allowed to call you ONCE during your rest without breaking it. You are also allowed to unplug/shutoff your phone and not answer 'til out of rest.

Many FSDOs, Regions and POIs may tell you that it is OK to do a "lookback", and call it rest when you were on call.

The Regional SWA guy told SWA it was OK to not do the required MX. Where is that guy now?

The FSDO/Region/POI's opinion doesn't count if something goes wrong and/or FAA HQ decides to check out you and your airline. Everyone will be hammered if they don't follow the rules.

cliff
GRB
 
The purpose of prospective rest is to prevent an employer from looking back over the past day and saying, simply because no flying came up, "That was your day off."

The one phone call rule is somewhat misunderstood. What the chief legal counsel said was that one phone call received from the company during the rest period does not interrupt the rest period, nor require resetting the rest period. This should not be construed to mean that only one call is allowed...which is the way many have taken it.

At no time did the Chief Counsel stipulate that only one call is allowed.
 
That's funny, you said "135" and "Days Off" in the same sentence!
Seriously.....like the other replies above said, a day off, to satisfy the 24 hr. period you asked about, must be announced ahead of time, as in "starting at 5 pm, you have 24 hrs off." But, that does not imply whatsoever that an employer must put all 13 of those required 24 hr. periods on the schedule ahead of time. Conceivably, you could be assigned work (duty and flying) for the first ~77 days of a quarter, at which point you'd have a mandatory "time out" of the next 13 days. (Never happens that way, and, would certainly $uck to have that schedule, but, it would satisfy the legality.)
 
I am sure everyone on this forum is familiar with the 135.267 (f) which states that the certificate holder must allow for 13-24 hour periods of rest each quarter. I believe sometime back I was told that these rest periods cannot be retro-active and that they must be determined ahead of time. I'm sure this will boil over into a massive debate but does anybody have any cold hard facts on this? Thanks.

If you actually find a charter company that gives it's pilots time off please let us know.
 
Rest time

As one of the inspectors that testified at the SWA hearing, I can tell you that the only way a legal interpretation works for you is at the NTSB hearing.

I worked for a 135 operation that said, "If you haven't heard from us by 7pm then you are off until 7am and if you haven't heard from us by 7pm on Friday, you are off until 7am on Monday."

When I asked what happens if you call me at 8pm and I tell you I can't come in? The answer was I would be fired. Duh!!!

As a former inspector, if the company doesn't give you 13 days, scheduled off, in advance, in a quarter, the company will be violated.

Good riddance to Mr. Stuckey.
 
Beer Rule

To determine if had a 24-hour duty free period you have to apply the beer rule. If you were not allowed to drink beer for 16 hours, it was not a duty free 24-hour period. Management has to say you have the next 24 hours off; they can give you this call at any time. They can say take another 14 hours after you are rested and call it 24 hours. Vacation or sick days also fulfill the requirement of a 24 hour duty free period. A company could give you 26 days of vacation running from 3-20-08 to 4-13-08 and then work you with no days off from 01-01-08 to 09-16-08. You can elect to look back, but the company can not assing a look back. BTW USA Jet DA-20 pilots 10 hard days off every 28 days 135 ops, because we care.
 
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Nobody is going to get violated. If that was true, every part 135 operator would already be violated. If you want a real scheduled job, you just need to go 121 or fractional.
 
The nature of the “daily” rest period is the same, regardless of the applicable subpart. Rest must be 1) continuous, 2) determined prospectively (i.e., known in advance), and 3) free from all restraint by the certificate holder, including freedom from work or freedom from present responsibility for work should the occasion arise.

Read entire FAA legal interpretation

December 19, 2005
Mr. Michael T. Brazill
Director of Operations
Summit Jet L.L.C.
7144 Republic Airport
Farmingdale, N.Y. 11735
Dear Mr. Brazill:
This letter is in response to your March 12, 2004 request for an interpretation of 14 C.F.R. section 135.267(f) (Subpart F).
Scenario Presented:
1. Summit Jet employs a crew of 2 pilots designated to operate a specific aircraft in it’s Part 135 feet. This crew has been selected by the owner of this aircraft.
2. The crew has been informed by Summit Jet that their expected response time to any potential duty assignment would be “as available” but no longer than 24 hours from time of notification.
3. The crew is notified by means of a 2-way text messaging device that may be turned to “silent” mode during periods of rest. [The] crew is only required to respond to messages if directed to do so in the message. Response to messages can be at [the] crewmember [’s] discretion.
4. The crew has been informed by Summit Jet to make monthly requests for specific “hard time” off as necessary. There has been no restriction on the number of “hard time” off requests made nor any requirement for the crew to request any “hard time” off. Summit Jet would provide replacement crews in the event the crew was unavailable.
5. The crew has averaged 11 days per month as “not scheduled” during a given calendar quarter. The definition of a day “not scheduled” is a day (a period of 24 hours or more) where there are no flights, rest overnights or duty of any kind required by Summit Jet.
Question:
Has the requirement to provide each crewmember at least 13 rest periods of at least 24 consecutive each in each calendar quarter as defined in FAR 135.267(f)1 been satisfied in the above scenario?
Answer:
We point out some unclear language in the above scenario as well as our understanding of what some of Summit Jet’s language means:
Sentence 1 of Paragraph 3 appears to suggest that a pilot’s rest period is not interrupted because of the pilot’s ability to turn the 2-way text messaging device to “silent” mode during periods of rest. Yet, at the same time, it states in sentence 2 that the crew is “required to respond to messages if directed to do so in the message.” We do not see how, in practice, a pilot may ever exercise the option turn the device to “silent” when any random incoming message could require a response. In addition, if as stated in sentence 3, responses may be at the “crewmember[’s] discretion,” this negates the previous statement that a message may require a crewmember to respond. Thus, it is unclear if a pilot may, in practice, use the “silent” mode to avoid interruptions of rest and if he is required or not required to respond to any message.
Paragraph 4 discusses monthly requests for specific “hard time” off. While the requester does not specify what “hard time” means, we assume that it is not a reference to the 24 hour rest periods in section 135.267(f). Rather, it may be a reference to personal time to be used for vacation or other reason.
Paragraph 5 states that the crew has “averaged 11 days per month as “not scheduled” during a given calendar quarter,” and defines the “not scheduled” day as a period of 24 or more hours in which there are no flights, rest overnights or duty of any kind required by Summit Jet. We cannot tell from this average number what actual number of “not scheduled” days each of Summit Jet’s pilots, subject to the requirement in section 135.267(e), receives. We also understand that Summit Jet considers the “not scheduled” days as 24 consecutive hour rest periods.
The nature of the “daily” rest period is the same, regardless of the applicable subpart. Rest must be 1) continuous, 2) determined prospectively (i.e., known in advance), and 3) free from all restraint by the certificate holder, including freedom from work or freedom from present responsibility for work should the occasion arise. See e.g., April 29, 2005 Letter to Candace K. Kolander, from Rebecca B. MacPherson, Assistant Chief Counsel, Regulations Division [2005-5] (copy enclosed); and Oct. 29, 2002 Letter to James W. Johnson, from Donald P. Byrne, Assistant Chief Counsel, Regulations Division [2003-6] (copy enclosed). In addition, the nature of the 24-hour rest period is the same as the nature of the “daily” rest period.
Under the facts provided, it is unclear to us if a pilot may ever put the messaging device in “silent” mode to avoid interruption of rest, as it is unclear if he is required or not required to respond to any message. If under Summit Jet’s practice the pilot is obligated to respond to a message during the 24-hour rest period (or “not scheduled” day), thus pilots cannot use the “silent” feature in that period, that so-called “rest period” is neither uninterrupted nor continuous. It is also not free from all restraint. Therefore, it would not satisfy the nature of rest test.
Finally, the regulation requires the certificate holder to “provide each flight crewmember at least 13 rest periods of at least 24 consecutive hours.” (Emphasis added.) Summit Jet has stated high average numbers of “not scheduled” days, but we cannot tell if there are pilots for whom the average number disguises receipt of less than the regulatory minimum of 13 days. The relevant showing that Summit Jet must make under the regulation is that each flight crewmember actually receives at least 13 rest periods in every quarter. If Summit Jet cannot do so, it has not satisfied the regulation’s plain requirement.
This letter was prepared by Joseph A. Conte, Manager, Operations Law Branch and Constance M. Subadan, Attorney, Operations Law Branch. It was coordinated with the Flight Standards Service at FAA Headquarters.
Sincerely,
Rebecca B. MacPherson
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations Division
Enclosures
The FAA has not published this interpretation in the Federal Register for pre-issuance comments because it does not present a new issue. This is consistent with the Dec. 16, 2005 Federal Register Notice of Reinstatement of 1980 Public Comment Procedures for Requests for Interpretation of the Flight Time, Rest and Duty Period Regulations (70 Fed. Reg. 74863). That Notice states that Federal Register public comment procedures would be subject to three limitations: 1) pre-issuance comments would be solicited for requests presenting new issues, i.e., not for repetitive type questions; 2) even for new issues, the Agency may issue an interpretation immediately, subject to post-issuance comments; and 3) the Agency reserves the right to modify or discontinue the use of the procedures, at the Office of the Chief Counsel’s election.
 
Documentation

The biggest problem I see with this regulation is the lack of REQUIRED DOCUMENTATION. All the bottom feeders I worked for never had to document a pilot received his/her days off. Same goes for the ten hour rest requirement. If the feds where serious about this regulation they would REQUIRE DOCUMENTATION. None of the Form Ones I ever saw showed anything but duty on/duty off times. Never was there anything that documented when rest began/ended. I ain't no rocket surgeon but even I know that REQUIRED DOCUMENTATION would make it a lot harder for these bottom feeders to get away with this abuse.

Johnny
 
If you actually find a charter company that gives it's pilots time off please let us know.

We offer 6 on 3 off schedules. All days off are hard days off, except during holiday peak travel days (get extra money for flying those). During non-peak travel days, crews get approx 27-29 days off per quarter. Pilots this quarter bid April - June will have 1 peak travel day period covering 5 days (so maximum 3 fewer day off). We don't pay very well, but try to take care of our people. However our senior Captain (1) and First Officer (1) lines are 4 on 3 off ;)

Real quote should read - if you can find a charter company that gives its pilots time off and pays well...let you know
 
If you actually find a charter company that gives it's pilots time off please let us know.

I've certainly worked for a few. Some were scheduled far in advance, others were arranged a day before, but the common denominator has always been at scheduled 24 hours off, prospectively. I've worked at 135 operators that gave one week on, one off, and others two weeks on, two off.

The biggest problem I see with this regulation is the lack of REQUIRED DOCUMENTATION. All the bottom feeders I worked for never had to document a pilot received his/her days off. Same goes for the ten hour rest requirement. If the feds where serious about this regulation they would REQUIRE DOCUMENTATION. None of the Form Ones I ever saw showed anything but duty on/duty off times. Never was there anything that documented when rest began/ended. I ain't no rocket surgeon but even I know that REQUIRED DOCUMENTATION would make it a lot harder for these bottom feeders to get away with this abuse.

Every 135 operator for whom I've worked (seven different operators, I believe) has kept close track of duty and rest times, including days off. Pilots who cannot prove they have operated in accordance with the regulation are subject to violation. The operator is required by regulation to keep these records, and must do so for a period of 12 months.

§ 135.63 Recordkeeping requirements.

(a) Each certificate holder shall keep at its principal business office or at other places approved by the Administrator, and shall make available for inspection by the Administrator the following—

(4) An individual record of each pilot used in operations under this part, including the following information:

(vii) The pilot's flight time in sufficient detail to determine compliance with the flight time limitations of this part.

(b) Each certificate holder must keep each record required by paragraph (a)(3) of this section for at least 6 months, and must keep each record required by paragraphs (a)(4) and (a)(5) of this section for at least 12 months.

The regulation specifically calls for records of flight times specified under Part 135. The specific regulation title for the flight time limitations, however, cites rest times in concert with flight time (eg, " § 135.263 Flight time limitations and rest requirements: All certificate holders."). The two go hand in hand. Keeping track of one by necessity means keeping track of the other.

If your employers have not been doing this, they've been out of compliance with the regulation, and without doubt, their own operations manuals. I've yet to meet a POI that doesn't require this documentation.

The manual required under Part 135, generally termed the General Operations Manual (formerly the ATCO manual) will spell out the specific forms prescribed by the company and approved by the FAA. The Manual itself is an approved document, to which those operating under the Certificate are held accountable.

In all cases, I always ensured that a full accounting of my time included a record not only of flight time, but rest time, and off time. When the FAA attempted enforcement action against me for an alleged violation of rest times, I was able to show with those records that I had not committed a violation. The FAA was particularly interested in my detailed records, especially when the company tried to present with a record that differed from mine. The company was then held accountable.

Remember that when dealing with the regulation, you're guilty until proven innocent. When the subjet of enforcement action, you may appeal the enforcement action, but that's your first chance to fight it. After you've already been violated. Protect yourself with very detailed records. At all times be able to show that you had ten hours of rest prior to showing up for duty, at all times be able to show your cumulative flight times, days off, rest periods, etc.

Failure to do so is at your peril.
 
Hi!

I fly for a Charter Company.

-9 pilots get 12 hard days off every 28.
Falcon 20 pilots get 10 (or 12, with less pay) hard days off every 28.

If you're on the road, and you day off is coming up, you have 3 choices. Take your days off, and get airlined (or bizjetted) home, take extra pay for your days off, or bank you days off to use later.

If the company doesn't need you, they will fly you home. If they need you, you can have your pick of the 3 options above.

cliff
YIP
 
documentation

Av,

you stated that documentation of flight time and REST TIME go hand in hand."You can't have one without the other".

All three of my former companies had the same record keeping procedures (approved by their POI). Fill out a FORM 1- this was the aircraft log book that included among other things (aircraft time, engine time, etc.) duty on/off times.

Now, Im sure many will say "if you documented duty on/off times then the crew member must know that he is at rest." We must remember we are dealing with scoundrels. Follow me now.

Lets say that I land in TEB at 2000Z, fill out the Form 1 and document duty ON time was 1200Z and duty OFF time was 2030Z. Eight and half hours of work. Banker's hours.

Unfortunately early the next morning I get a call and have to be at the field no later then 0630Z (ouch). I show up and duty ON time starts at 0630Z. Ten hours have lapsed from the day before and I start a NEW Form 1. I fly my trip, grease my landing and everybody is happy including the POI.

Why is the POI happy? Because the Form 1 from the day I landed in TEB and the Form 1 from the next day do not show any ACTIVITY for Ten hours,implying that I was at rest for that Ten hours. To bad I didn't know I was at rest. I still had 5 and half hours left before I reached 14 hours and turned into a pumpkin.

These bottom feeders would keep the crew on call for the remaining 5 and half hours in a case there was a "pop up flight" that could be completed in that time frame. In this situation I would simply fill out a new Form 1 (perfectly acceptable to the POI) and show duty ON time as 2030Z from the example above and a new customer (i.e. different PAX).

The worst of it was that if no pop up flight occurred in that remaining 5 and half hours then that time counted towards the ten hours of "rest time". LOVELY

Each Form 1 documents ONLY duty on/off time and NEVER documents when REST TIME (which I realize should start when you duty off) began. My experience has been (and I believe for many others) that all that is required from the FEDS is that the Form 1's document a TEN hour period of INACTIVITY.No where is it documented that I am on call and expected to fly should a trip come up. You get to call it rest if not pop flight occurred and we all know that is bogus.

The ten hours of rest is implicit BUT NOT DOCUMENTED and that leaves a lot of room for manipulation. The Feds know this but simply don't care.
 

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