Logging Approaches

[SSDD]

I think it is important for us to know the difference between what is legal, and what Southwest requires. It is a slippery slope to let each individual operator decide what is legal and what isn't. The FAR's are the FAR's, they are the final word in what is legal and what isn't. If for example, I were flying a Lear for a 135 operation, and I was typed on that Lear, I would log PIC time. However, when I applied to Southwest, or whoever, I would not include that time as PIC.

Its important to know what is legal and what is custom.

 

[SDCFI]

Another real-world example: I'm a type-rated FO at a fractional. I log my legs as PF as PIC as the FAR's allow. The company backs this up by stating during training that if I upgrade on the same aircraft and I have logged 100 hours PIC in the aircraft I won't be a high-mins captain, even though I have never signed for the plane. This is all perfectly legal. I can also use this PIC time should I have an opportunity to fly as a contract pilot where a certain amount of PIC time is required. Now, I have a separate column in my logbook for this logged PIC time. This time does not go on my airline applications when they require Part I PIC time. I already have close to 2000 hours turbine PIC from flying freight, and I make sure to keep them separate. There is nothing "dirty" or unethical about logging time this way. It's perfectly legal according to Mr FAA. It doesn't get you any unfair advantage because any major airline interviewer knows the difference between what you can log, and what is accepted by them. If there's any doubt as to the validity of your time they show you the door. Easy as pie.

 

[flylowman]

So I learn to fly at a young age. I do not have a commercial licence and I cropdust for about 3 years. Can I log this time when I get a commercial?

What do you think? Get a life. No you can't. If you do, I would not include it in PIC for required 121 PIC time.

Look at an app. It ask PIC ie. signing for aircraft.

 

[Beetle007]

Another real-world example: I'm a type-rated FO at a fractional. I log my legs as PF as PIC as the FAR's allow. The company backs this up by stating during training that if I upgrade on the same aircraft and I have logged 100 hours PIC in the aircraft I won't be a high-mins captain, even though I have never signed for the plane.

You can't use the PIC logged as a SIC to waive the high mins for captain under part 121 (not sure about fractionals). You were not serving as PIC...only logging PIC.

The second way to log PIC flight time that is pertinent to your
question is to be the sole manipulator of the controls of an
aircraft for which the pilot is rated, as you mention in your
letter. Thus, under a 121 operation you can have both pilots
logging time as pilot in command when the appropriately rated
second in command is manipulating the controls.
We stress, however, that here we are discussing logging of flight
time for purposes of FAR 61.51, where you are keeping a record to
show recent flight experience or to show that you meet the
requirements for a higher rating. Your question does not say if
the second pilot in your example is fully qualified as a PIC, or
only as an SIC. This is important, because even though an SIC
can log PIC time, that pilot may not be qualified to serve as PIC
under Part 121.

An example of this difference is FAR 121.652(a), which raises IFR
landing minimums for pilots in command of airplanes flown under
Part 121 who have not served at least 100 hours as PIC in that
type of airplane. Served and logged are not the same in this
context, and no matter how the SIC logs his time, he has not
served as a PIC until he has completed the training and check
rides necessary for certification as a Part 121 PIC.

 

[Beetle007]

To throw another curvball. A type rated SIC can only log PIC if they have a commerical certificate or less. Reference 61.51

If you have an ATP you can not log PIC unless you are the captain.

The reason for this is that PIC requirements are used to meet the requirements of a ATP. Once you have an ATP, the FAA doesn't see any reason for you to log PIC unless you are the captain.

 

[AC560]

Ok. But can you show me where in the regulations it defines that the pilot in command is the captain?

Pilot in Command has only one definition it is found in FAR 1.1. Captain is a word that airlines use it has no meaning in the FAR's. If you have two or more Captains on a flight, only one of them is PIC. How that gets decided it gets decided is another issue but the rank Captain is pointless in the discussion.


Pilot in command means the person who:
(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and
safety of the flight;
(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the
flight; and
(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if
appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.

The above though has nothing to do with logging under part 61.51. Logging under part 61.51 generally has little if anything to do with how you will fill out your flying time on a job application.

It never ceases to amaze me how much this gets debated and discussed by people who really should know what the answer is.

 

[Starscream]

To throw another curvball. A type rated SIC can only log PIC if they have a commerical certificate or less. Reference 61.51

If you have an ATP you can not log PIC unless you are the captain.

The reason for this is that PIC requirements are used to meet the requirements of a ATP. Once you have an ATP, the FAA doesn't see any reason for you to log PIC unless you are the captain.

That's not a bad point.

You could also say that you can log it in that situation -- but it just wouldn't count towards anything anymore.

The FARs wouldn't prohibit it per se, it just wouldn't be usable towards anything in practice once you have the ATP.

 

[twighead]

So just out of curiosity, how do you log night time when you're PNF? Both night and instrument are conditions of flight.

Both are conditions of fight, but the regulations define the requirements to log each of them differently. Instrument time can only be logged "only for that flight time when the PERSON operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions." They have no such reqirement to log night time.

As far as logging 121 PIC time when you are the SIC and sole manipulator, this proves that you can't do it:
61.51 "2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate."

It specifies "acting" as PIC, therefore you can't log it under the sole manipulator clause.

 

[Explosive]

Both are conditions of fight, but the regulations define the requirements to log each of them differently. Instrument time can only be logged "only for that flight time when the PERSON operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions." They have no such reqirement to log night time.

As far as logging 121 PIC time when you are the SIC and sole manipulator, this proves that you can't do it:
61.51 "2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate."

It specifies "acting" as PIC, therefore you can't log it under the sole manipulator clause.

You are 100% wrong on both items. So an SIC is not "operating" an airplane as the PM? Also, the 61.51 reference that you posted simply allows the PIC (in operations requiring an ATP) to log PIC time while acting as the PIC even when not manipulating the controls.

 

[twighead]

You are 100% wrong on both items.

Show me your argment then. It's pretty black and white to me. Tha sole manipulator reg specifies in the first line that it applies only sport, recreational, private, and commercial pilots. The ATP portion is a separate line.

 

[Explosive]

Thank you for your letter of January 25, 1999, in which you ask questions about logging pilot in command (PIC) time and second in command (SIC) time when operating under Part 121 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR)

You first ask whether it would be proper under FAR 61.51(g) for a properly qualified SIC to log instrument flight time flown during instrument conditions while serving as the SIC in Part 121 operations on an aircraft that requires two crewmembers. The answer is yes. As a qualified SIC, and as a required crewmember, you are "operating" the aircraft within the meaning of FAR 61.51(g). Therefore, as the SIC operating the aircraft "solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions," you would log that time as SIC flown in instrument conditions. Naturally, the PIC logs the time as PIC flown in instrument conditions.

You then ask if, for the purposes of maintaining instrument currency, an instrument approach on the above flight flown by the PIC can be logged as an instrument approach by the SIC. The answer is no. As the SIC you have not "performed" the approach as contemplated by FAR 61.57(c) because you were not the sole manipulator of the controls during the approach.

Lastly, you present the following scenario: under a Part 121 operation the air carrier has designated a pilot and a copilot as required by FAR 121.385(c). The pilot is the authorized PIC and the copilot is the authorized SIC. The PIC is also the company check airman. During the course of the flight, the SIC is the sole manipulator of the controls for the flight. Additionally, he has passed the competency checks required for Part 121 operations, at least as SIC. You ask whether the SIC can log PIC time for that portion of the flight in which he is the sole manipulator of the controls for the flight. The answer is yes.

There is a distinction between actingas pilot in command and loggingof pilot in command time. "Pilot in command," as defined in FAR 1.1, "means the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of an aircraft during flight time." FAR 61.51(e) is a flight-time logging regulation, which only regulates the recording of PIC time used to meet the requirements toward a higher certificate, higher rating, or for recent flight experience:



2

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.

(1) A recreational private or commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for that flight time during which that person -- (i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated_ (ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft: or (iii) Except for a recreational pilot is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time whileacting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.

While it is not possible for two pilots to actas PIC simultaneously, it is possible for two pilots to logPIC flight time simultaneously. If the pilot is designated as PIC by the certificate holder, as required by FAR 121.385(c), that person is PIC for the entire flight, no matter who is actually manipulating the controls of the aircraft, because that pilot is responsible for the safety and operation of the aircraft. The pilot who is the sole manipulator of the controls of the aircraft for which the pilot is rated may also log that flight as PIC.

It is important to remember that we are dealing with loggingof flight time only for purposes of FAR 61.51, where you are keeping a record to show recent flight experience or to show that you meet the requirements for a higher rating. Your question does not say if the SIC is fully qualified as a PIC, or only as an SIC. This is important because even though an SIC can log PIC time, that pilot may not be qualified to serveas PIC under Part 121.

I hope this satisfactorily answers your questions. If we can be of further assistance, please contact us.

D. Brent Pope
Attorney, ANM-7H

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...terpretations/data/interps/1999/Carpenter.rtf


Even though you hold an ATP certificate, you are only exercising commercial privileges while acting as SIC.

 

[Rekks Inbound]

e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;
(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.
(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.

This is straight from the FAA site. It says i or ii or iii etc. Unless you are signing for it, you can't log it as PIC, even if typed.

Peace.

Rekks

 

[twighead]

Thank you for your letter of January 25, 1999, in which you ask questions about logging pilot in command (PIC) time and second in command (SIC) time when operating under Part 121 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR)

You first ask whether it would be proper under FAR 61.51(g) for a properly qualified SIC to log instrument flight time flown during instrument conditions while serving as the SIC in Part 121 operations on an aircraft that requires two crewmembers. The answer is yes. As a qualified SIC, and as a required crewmember, you are "operating" the aircraft within the meaning of FAR 61.51(g). Therefore, as the SIC operating the aircraft "solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions," you would log that time as SIC flown in instrument conditions. Naturally, the PIC logs the time as PIC flown in instrument conditions.

You then ask if, for the purposes of maintaining instrument currency, an instrument approach on the above flight flown by the PIC can be logged as an instrument approach by the SIC. The answer is no. As the SIC you have not "performed" the approach as contemplated by FAR 61.57(c) because you were not the sole manipulator of the controls during the approach.

Lastly, you present the following scenario: under a Part 121 operation the air carrier has designated a pilot and a copilot as required by FAR 121.385(c). The pilot is the authorized PIC and the copilot is the authorized SIC. The PIC is also the company check airman. During the course of the flight, the SIC is the sole manipulator of the controls for the flight. Additionally, he has passed the competency checks required for Part 121 operations, at least as SIC. You ask whether the SIC can log PIC time for that portion of the flight in which he is the sole manipulator of the controls for the flight. The answer is yes.

There is a distinction between actingas pilot in command and loggingof pilot in command time. "Pilot in command," as defined in FAR 1.1, "means the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of an aircraft during flight time." FAR 61.51(e) is a flight-time logging regulation, which only regulates the recording of PIC time used to meet the requirements toward a higher certificate, higher rating, or for recent flight experience:



2

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.

(1) A recreational private or commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for that flight time during which that person -- (i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated_ (ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft: or (iii) Except for a recreational pilot is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time whileacting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.

While it is not possible for two pilots to actas PIC simultaneously, it is possible for two pilots to logPIC flight time simultaneously. If the pilot is designated as PIC by the certificate holder, as required by FAR 121.385(c), that person is PIC for the entire flight, no matter who is actually manipulating the controls of the aircraft, because that pilot is responsible for the safety and operation of the aircraft. The pilot who is the sole manipulator of the controls of the aircraft for which the pilot is rated may also log that flight as PIC.

It is important to remember that we are dealing with loggingof flight time only for purposes of FAR 61.51, where you are keeping a record to show recent flight experience or to show that you meet the requirements for a higher rating. Your question does not say if the SIC is fully qualified as a PIC, or only as an SIC. This is important because even though an SIC can log PIC time, that pilot may not be qualified to serveas PIC under Part 121.

I hope this satisfactorily answers your questions. If we can be of further assistance, please contact us.

D. Brent Pope
Attorney, ANM-7H


Well I stand corrected then if that information is accurate.

 

[AC560]

To throw another curvball. A type rated SIC can only log PIC if they have a commerical certificate or less. Reference 61.51

If you have an ATP you can not log PIC unless you are the captain.

The reason for this is that PIC requirements are used to meet the requirements of a ATP. Once you have an ATP, the FAA doesn't see any reason for you to log PIC unless you are the captain.

Sec. 61.167 - Privileges.
(a) A person who holds an airline transport pilot certificate is entitled to the same privileges as those afforded a person who holds a commercial pilot certificate with an instrument rating.


Sec. 61.51 - Pilot logbooks
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for that flight time during which that person
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated;

(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.

If you have an ATP rating and are acting as PIC (part 1) of an operation requiring an ATP you log PIC regardless of whether you are the sole manipulator or not. If you ATP rating and are not acting as PIC (part 1) of an operation requiring an ATP you can log in the FAA's view all time which you are th e sole manipulator.

 

[Rekks Inbound]

Keep reading, specifically (e) (ii) and (iii). The semicolon after (i) is treated as a comma, signifying and or or.

Peace.

Rekks

 

[AC560]

Keep reading

Keep reading what? The answer is clear in the FAR's and certainly clear in the legal interpretations posted.

 

[Beetle007]

Sec. 61.167 - Privileges.
(a) A person who holds an airline transport pilot certificate is entitled to the same privileges as those afforded a person who holds a commercial pilot certificate with an instrument rating.

Logging of flight time is not considered a privilege. You will find commercial pilot privileges under FAR 61.133. Did you ever flight instruct?

 

[AC560]

Logging of flight time is not considered a privilege. You will find commercial pilot privileges under FAR 61.133. Did you ever flight instruct?

Ok you win, if you have an ATP you can never ever log PIC time again unless you are a captain for a part 121/135 carrier. I wonder how the corporate pilots flying part 91 with an ATP manage to stay current but I guess it is just a mystery of the FAR's which I will never understand.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

PF and PNF can both log ACTUAL and NIGHT as these are recognized as conditions of flight by the FAA.

Only the PF may log an instrument approach or a landing.

Instrument time may also be logged with the AP.

Simple as that.

 

[Beetle007]

Ok you win, if you have an ATP you can never ever log PIC time again unless you are a captain for a part 121/135 carrier. I wonder how the corporate pilots flying part 91 with an ATP manage to stay current but I guess it is just a mystery of the FAR's which I will never understand.

I am tempted to say I am wrong. The only thing keeping me from saying I am wrong is that the FAA doesn't require you to log PIC to stay current. The only purpose of PIC is for the aeronautical experience requriements of certificates and ratings. Once you have your ATP, the FAA doesn't see the need for you to log PIC.

The only purpose of PIC after you get your ATP is to satisfy high min requirements or other regs that require you to have acted as a captain. Remember that PIC logged under the sole manipulator clause can't be used towards high mins.