XJ CA training

[Raskal]

For those of you familiar with the mesaba training dept, I'm starting with the capt class on the 19th. There are 9 of us. After reading a bunch of posts over the past week (fbo sitting induced boredom) I'm curious about a couple of things:

In a 121 program like this, are sim partners taken from within the same class?

I guess my concern is this: I've read a lot of cases where people are having a ton of trouble with basic things like flight directors and so on. For example, here is a post from another board:

The other night I was so lost that I started to wonder if I had completely missed the boat during training. I was asked to turn the auto pilot off and hand fly a non-precision. My instrutor said I flew well for raw data but he wanted the flight guidance on, lol. This is where my problems started. I found out that I was totally cluless about the flight guidance system. I understood the theory but it was the application that I struggled with.

Summary of my awesome flight, The flight guidance scramble:

Selecting a new altitude before I had captured the previous, not good. Focusing so much on how to work the flight guidance panal that my attitude and airspeed went to poo. Then there was the missed that inolved a turn to capture a radial. I set the initial altitude instead of the final missed altitude. Therefore I scrambled with the callouts while creating an unnecesary struggle trying to set the next altitude/heading, all while trying to sink the VOR frequency and radial. In the depature, when to go from pink to green needles

I'm really beginning to understand the training dept's struggle with low-time pilots, and I'm getting concerned because this is all very basic knowledge and technique (raw data for a non-precision??? wtf??...). So my questions is, are there guys making it to checkrides without being taught this stuff? Is it the training dept not teaching, or guys not learning and still getting through?

Obviously someone that doesn't have a good understanding of the basic avionics/usage in turbine aircraft could really screw up a type ride for the other employee. Is it the sim partner's responsibility to teach and bring the other guy up to speed? I certainly have no problem helping anyone out and actually look forward to it, but the idea of dumping a ride because the right-seater doesn't know enough to be there yet concerns me a great deal, I've never failed a type check or recurrent checkride and have no plans to.

So, bottom line, any suggestions about how best to make sure the other guy is keeping up ok? Is it ok to offer to help them get up to speed?

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

CA Upgrade

I am going to be in class the 19th for the 200. This will be my first upgrade and I have been giving considerable thought to this exact topic. In the past I have been that sim partner you worried about. And I have ruined friendships because of my lack of preparedness.

First of all everyone needs to realize that there is a tremendous amount of material to cover. So much, that a person may be studying his backside off but may be either not studying the most timely stuff or pure exhaustion doesn't allow for stuff to stick. Also the student MAY be studying incorrectly. You don't get good at flows by reading them; you don't get calls and checklists by reading them. Calls MUST be practiced by verbalizing them with a partner. Flows must be practiced in the sim or with the poster you will get first day of systems class.

Remember that sim training can be a team effort. AFTER the first week of INDOC try to get the instructor to get the training scheduler to make sim schedules so that partners can be assigned. Then what I intend to do is spend some time talking to my partner to see exactly how he intends to study. If he doesn't want to work with you, then fine. But you MUST find someone to work the calls and checklist with you so you are ready. I use my wife, who actually learned the calls and profiles as well or better than I did. If the partner doesn't get themselves together, you will get another person to take there place. As long as you’re ready you have nothing to be afraid of. And it will be IMMEDIATELY seen and the instructor will know.

I have gone through 2 initial training events here and both times I didn't have the opportunity to practice with my partner before I got into the sim. Both times I had trouble which was due to poor calls and flows. If you get those down the WHOLE process is easier and you can concentrate on technique and creating muscle memory for the flows.

If you can work together, as the Captain you will also be able to see where the weakness of the partner are, and by helping to build your partners skill you will improve your skills. Another study aid is working on oral stuff together. Start in the upper left corner of the overhead panel and work out each system. Learn the lights, each limitation associated with the panel, and what kind of chime, horn, or bell goes with what. This is how your oral will be conducted. For some reason, orals just bug the heck out of me and I panic about them. The classroom won't exactly teach in this practical way as I described but if no one tells you ahead of time what to do you could have some trouble.

There is also a test bank with about 1200 SAAB questions. Do not memorize these until time for your recurrent. You will get a review before the systems test and it will target your study better than memorizing the whole bank.

Work on performance or at least weight and balance problems. You see them at the beginning of systems but if you don't practice them regularly you will be in trouble when you get to the oral.

Some other thoughts:
Every test is a jeopardy situation. With that said, KNOW that everyone wants you to pass and as long as you try hard and have a good attitude you should make it. Don't come prepared, don't get your books out when asked (I heard from an instructor that someone was fired for not taking books out, of course there must be more to the story but attitude was the key).

Jeopardy doesn't end in the sim. IOE is jeopardy. IOE instructors are great but if you can't get it together in the allotted time plus some extra, they will let you go.

I would like to welcome you to Mesaba. It took me a long time to get here. I am not sure about this street Captain stuff, but that is how it is right now. It is a special pilot group and to get this far you have gone through a lot. You can expect 6 to 9 legs a day. Pure exhaustion. And semi-challenging commutes. Flying the SAAB in DTW is much better than in MSP, and few 2 leg high speeds. But there are many places to get in trouble. Just take it easy, step carefully and keep your certificate in your pocket and don't let anyone talk you into something that could put your job or certificate in trouble.

 

[mesaba13]

As soon as you get assigned a partner, start leading the way like you will be expected to as a captain. Bring the person "along" as best you can. Work together on preparing for the oral, this will help you as well. You both need to use the CPT trainer and get the flows down cold before you ever hit the sim. The process only speeds up once sim training starts and you dont want your partner to get behind. If you can, bid a sim schedule that has some time off between the systems course and when sim starts, as this gives some needed rest.

Watch your FO closely from lesson 1, and ensure that when you call for something like "flaps up" or "set max power" you get it, because over speeding the flaps or setting 150% torque on a stall is a good start on a path to bust. You will be surprised how many mistakes you start to catch and that awareness should build your confidence for when the ride comes. With decent systems knowledge, You should have a basic understanding of where the QRH will take you before the FO reads it. If you dont like where he/she is going with it on the checkride, transfer control and read it yourself.

With all that said, you are largely in control of your destiny on a type ride. You get to fly your own approaches, miss when your expected to, stay within standards, etc. Most of this can be done even with some missed calls by your non-flying pilot.

In rare cases, the company will pull the plug on a marginal newhire before it gets to your ride. If you have concerns about your partners progress, talk to your instructor about it and go from there.

Congratulations and good luck!

 

[Raskal]

Thanks for the advice, and also the PM recvd too. I re-read my post and I think it sounds more a$$holish than I meant it-sorry if I offended anyone.

GRAAB, I can understand your reservations about the street guys...I would probably have them too. Rest assurred, the guys I know have all paid our dues with crappy pay and hard times, it's the same game all over aviation whether it be airlines/corporate (me)/charter/freight...it all sucks when you're new, and none of it's easy.

I remember my first type in the hawker, 17 days and I was in school alone. No days off because every day you're there you cost your company money. It was hard, especialy since I had no idea how to study. That I can definitely help a new guy with, and maybe we can help each other with the calls and flows.

I guess after reading all the negative stuff about training on other boards I've let myself get worried. I am walking away from what a lot of people would call a good job (mediocre at best IMHO) and a lot is riding on this. I'm very excited, have really enjoyed all of the people I've met so far, and feel like I'm finally getting to something I can be a larger part of (if that makes any sense) but I'm certainly a little worried about doing well.

 

[Rook]

Thanks for the advice, and also the PM recvd too. I re-read my post and I think it sounds more a$$holish than I meant it-sorry if I offended anyone.

GRAAB, I can understand your reservations about the street guys...I would probably have them too. Rest assurred, the guys I know have all paid our dues with crappy pay and hard times, it's the same game all over aviation whether it be airlines/corporate (me)/charter/freight...it all sucks when you're new, and none of it's easy.

I remember my first type in the hawker, 17 days and I was in school alone. No days off because every day you're there you cost your company money. It was hard, especialy since I had no idea how to study. That I can definitely help a new guy with, and maybe we can help each other with the calls and flows.

I guess after reading all the negative stuff about training on other boards I've let myself get worried. I am walking away from what a lot of people would call a good job (mediocre at best IMHO) and a lot is riding on this. I'm very excited, have really enjoyed all of the people I've met so far, and feel like I'm finally getting to something I can be a larger part of (if that makes any sense) but I'm certainly a little worried about doing well.

Just remember...other people have done it at other places. You can too. Good luck to you bud.

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

CA Upgrade

Raskal,
Don't take my street Captain comment as an attack. I don't know yours or any other of the street Captain's background. I would be a real bstard to slam you, which I am not.

I do know that I had 5000+ hrs with over 3000 multi pic and when I got hired. I thought I was prepared for the whole training thing, but there was nothing that would have prepared me for the experience I had. Intense is somewhat an understatement.

I am very confident in the training dept. When you make it to the line you will have really accomplished something to be proud of and I wish you nothing but the best.

Good luck

PM me and I will give you my contact info. Maybe I have some SAAB nuggets that would be helpful

 

[Mesabi Miner]

First off, I'm pleased that this thread is so thoughtful and that it seems as if people are taking their training seriously. As a new hire in the sim, I struggled - BAD - through my first three lessons. I had no idea how an autopilot/flight director worked or why you had to wait, "for the white number" to show up before setting the next altitude on a non-precision approach. How would I know this stuff? I relied heavily on my upgrading sim partner to prompt me when I fell behind and guide me though. Don't get me wrong - I studied my butt off and my partner and I got together outside of class time and went through flows, calls, etc, many times. I, in turn, was able to do the same for my new-hire partner when I upgraded. Sim training at XJ is tough, but with hard work outside of class, it will all come out O.K. The instructors know when you've been studying and that pays off when you need a little extra help. Lastly, if you are new to regional flying, nothing makes me want to help a "newbie" more than if s/he tells me s/he's brand new, right off OE and is open to help and suggestions. Those are the people you love to fly with. Good luck everyone.

MM

 

[Flybet3]

Thanks for the advice, and also the PM recvd too. I re-read my post and I think it sounds more a$$holish than I meant it-sorry if I offended anyone.

You didnt sound a$$holish at all brother, well said. Hell I'm the only sensitive do**** bag here and I'm OK with what you said LOL. Give me a call someday and we'll talk.

 

[ChickenSled]

Obviously someone that doesn't have a good understanding of the basic avionics/usage in turbine aircraft could really screw up a type ride for the other employee. Is it the sim partner's responsibility to teach and bring the other guy up to speed? I certainly have no problem helping anyone out and actually look forward to it, but the idea of dumping a ride because the right-seater doesn't know enough to be there yet concerns me a great deal, I've never failed a type check or recurrent checkride and have no plans to.

So, bottom line, any suggestions about how best to make sure the other guy is keeping up ok? Is it ok to offer to help them get up to speed?

Sounds pretty a$$holish to me. Ever wonder if you might just luck out and end up with a crackerjack guy in the right seat that you will bring down.....

Food for thought there super pilot.

Those that have, and those that will.

 

[CptMurf]

So, bottom line, any suggestions about how best to make sure the other guy is keeping up ok? Is it ok to offer to help them get up to speed?

Don't know how it is at other airlines, but the culture at XJ is that it is a two person flightdeck from day one. Upgrading captains usually help the new hires through indoc, systems, calls and flows, and in between sim sessions to get EVERYONE up to speed. This continues on the line and I think it pays off.

 

[flap operator]

The contract specifies that PCs and type rides will be conducted with qualified pilots, instuctors or checkairmen for PNF duties. Qualified line pilot = signed off. In other words, you won't be doing your type ride with a PNF that isn't ready for the checkride. The contract also spells out protocol for removing a partner if he/she is falling behind in training so as not to affect the other pilot negatively.

Welcome to Mesaba and have fun in training. As mentioned before, our training department is fantastic and will do everything they can to ensure you are sucessful. They will however, as a street captain, expect you to bring your captain-ship and your captain-ness to day 1. It will be your job as the captain to set the tone for your crew and take people under your wing if necessary.

Again, welcome to XJ and see you on the line.


FO