Alaska ETOPS...problems?

[alpine1989]

The data shows that SEA-HNL can carry between 151 and 154 (seasonal variation) adult pax based on 1.5 checked bags. With kids and less checked bags 157 is possible. HNL-SEA is no problem

LIH-SEA is going to be more of a problem due to LIH short runway and takeoff limitations. The data shows between 147 and 154 adult pax based on 1.5 checked bags.

 

[alpine1989]

ATA's B737-800 have 27K thrust. MTOW is 174,700 lbs and average OEW is 95,000 lbs. 2 Class config is 160.

 

[HAL]

I think the whole queston is this; are the figures Alaska is using based on the full ETOPS fuel requirements, or are they fudging based on using domestic fuel rules? This is the point that my source was trying to make.

If, as HalinTexas said, ATA is using all available power and flaps to get to OAK, how is AS going to go against the winter winds SEA-HNL, or worse, ANC-HNL?

On another note, I just heard that AS decided to make the ANC-HNL route year round (2x per week in summer).

HAL

 

[Old School 737]

ATA's B737-800 have 27K thrust. MTOW is 174,700 lbs and average OEW is 95,000 lbs. 2 Class config is 160.

I think the -800 max taxi is 174,700 with a takeoff of 174,200. If the ATA Planes have the Short Field Performance package (SFP) then Alaska will have much of the same lift problems they do. The Alaska -800's have the (SFP) and can lift more weight off a short runway then a non equiped -800. Any ATA guys know if their -800 have the (SFP)? I don't think they do.
Its true Alaska announced year round service from ANC but I think it is only 2 times a week.

 

[Rhino]

Fridays and Saturdays

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Oct. 3, 2007​

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Airline’s Permanent Fund Dividend Sale Includes One-Way Hawaii Fares Starting At $249​

ANCHORAGE, Alaska — Alaska Airlines today announced it will expand its service to Hawaii, offering year-round Anchorage-Honolulu flights. The nonstop flights, which begin

Dec. 9, will be offered daily through April 26, as previously announced, and twice weekly, on Fridays and Saturdays, between April 27 and Oct. 25.
"Expanding our Hawaii service from seasonal to year-round will ensure Alaskans can take a convenient, nonstop flight to the Aloha state any time of the year," said Bill MacKay, Alaska Airlines’ senior vice president for the state of Alaska.
The airline also launched its annual Permanent Fund Dividend (PFD) sale today, including one-way fares to Honolulu for as low as $249. The sale offers up to 25-percent savings on in-state travel; additional savings on select routes between Alaska and the Lower 48 states, Canada and Mexico; and 10-percent savings on complete vacation packages from Alaska Airlines Vacations.
"These sale fares now make travel to the Islands and other popular destinations in Alaska and the Lower 48 even more attractive," MacKay said.
Airfare reservations are available at alaskaair.com and Alaska Airlines’ toll-free reservation line at (800) ALASKAAIR or (800) 252-7522. Sample one-way PFD fares include:​

Between Anchorage and:
Honolulu $249

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Honolulu $249​

Between Fairbanks and:

Honolulu $289​

​

 

[HalinTexas]

I don't believe ATA has the "short-field package." Basically, because I've never heard of it. What is it? However, we have operated out of MDW, DCA and LGA since we got them.

There are many occasions when we need all 27k out of OGG, too, but it's not nearly as difficult as LIH.

 

[Singlecoil]

I think the big thing on the short field package is the fact that the slats don't extend from mid to full until flaps 30 is selected. With the standard 737, the slats move from mid to full extend when flaps 10 is selected. That means with the SFP you can do a flap 25 takeoff with the slats at mid, which apparently is a big deal for short field performance.
I think there is also something about the roll spoilers extending to a steeper angle in the ground mode, but I'm not sure about that one. As a pilot, the slats are the only thing you notice because the thing is harder to slow down. There isn't the increased drag at flaps 10 from the slats being full down like on the standard model. There is also more of a ballooning when flaps 30 is selected.

 

[Old School 737]

The flight spoilers come up to 88 degrees I believe instead of the 60 normal during touchdown. It helps with landing data but the big thing is the diffrent scheduling of the leeding edge to get more lift / less drag at greater then flaps five takeoffs. Sould help some on the E-tops flights but they said they will still have to block some seats from Lihu I believe.

 

[FlyDouglasJets]

actually the Air Miles (wind corrected grnd miles) during the winter, are shorter on the ANC-HNL run vs. the SEA-HNL run. Winter month air miles are in the 2650nm vs. 2700nm range, or thereabouts.

 

[mdanno808]

I think that the kicker will be the winds. AQ had serious problems out of ANC due to winds, and had to send a bunch of bags through SEA quite frequently.

 

[QCappy]

I think that the kicker will be the winds. AQ had serious problems out of ANC due to winds, and had to send a bunch of bags through SEA quite frequently.

That was in a -700. I'm not sure if the -800s will make a difference.

 

[mdanno808]

I have heard that the 700 actually has better range than the 800. Any truth to that?

 

[Getter]

-700 has the best range of all the 737's except for the BBJ.

 

[Green Banana]

Range is not the issue here. The 800 can carry 20K lbs more than the 700. Extra fuel for the etops requirement.

Also AQ never flew the ANC route. Only YVR.

 

[Old School 737]

I don't think it a range issue but rather a balancing of numbers game. How many people / bags/ cargo / fuel required /can I take and still lift the weight off the runway and still be within ZFW and Max TO weight and Landing weight. If you look at the miliage I think it is more miles from SEA to MIA. And ORD to ANC. I think the -900er would be a great choice for Alaska. I don't have performance numbers but with 28.3K moters and 188,000 takoff weight I bet you could fill up the seats and lift all the people/ bags/cargo / fuel you need.

 

[Green Banana]

The thing I have to laugh at is the APU is on all the way across the pacific. Now I can say I fly a 3 engine jet!!

 

[HAL]

Also AQ never flew the ANC route. Only YVR.

Aloha did fly from ANC to HNL in the winter/spring of 2002/2003 for Hawaiian Vacations, the same charter company that Hawaiian Airlines flies for now. HV needed extra lift and used Aloha. They ran into big problems however with load/range issues, and soon dropped the contract. We (HA) picked up the slack when AQ left.

HAL

 

[Green Banana]

Ahh, contract. Noted.
Thanks

 

[Wally]

...I did hear from some people that we may have to block off a few seats to carry more fuel but this is a rumor.

From the company website:
There will be payload restrictions in the LIH to SEA market (due to the short runway). They will vary by month, but generally will be 10-15 passengers less than a full plane. This was taken into consideration when developing this market and even with the payload restrictions, it should be a viable market for us.

Wally

 

[igneousy2]

AS's EVP of ops stated that the 900er doesn't work for AS because you gain range at the expense of cargo capacity as the extra fuel is carried in space that would have been cargo.

later