Frac Culture question

[Jack Mehoff]

I am new to NJA and have noticed that as an FO you barely ever fly the plane. At the Airlines it was usually every other leg 50/50. I'm vary happy to sit there enjoy the view and get a paycheck. I am just curious if flops, flex and CS are the same way or if this is a NJA thing.

 

[DO-82 driver]

This is rather odd....

--First off, what fleet are you in?
--Do you have the minimum 75 hrs in type with NJA as directed in our FOM to do pax legs?
--There are further restrictions as to when the F/O can t/o or land based on wx but that should be that much of an issue.

Also, if you're flying with a new Captain, he must do all the pax legs until he has 100hr in the a/c.

I thought most of our guy alternated legs with the right seat.

 

[old*art]

You either scare them with your first landing or are just having bum luck. We have a few stick hogs, but not that many that I have seen.

 

[Jack Mehoff]

I do have the 75hrs req meet and haven't scared the plane so far. I guess its just luck o da draw. thanks for the feed back

 

[skiandsurf]

Who cares who flies. The pay is the same regardless. I am not here to build flight time, and on a long flight I would rather talk to a controller then hit the heading button. But thats just me.

It seems like at the beginning of the tour, the PIC will ask if I want to fly from the left seat or right seat. Since I havent flown in the right seat for 15 yrs, I prefer the left seat. So, by my own choice, I only fly the empty flights. Its not uncommon for the day to start with a repo, then pax, then repo. So I get 2 flights, PIC gets 1. I have also flown flown with the same few PICs over and over, so its not a problem with them....at least they dont say anything. I have only flown 1 pax flight (from the right seat) since IOE.

Also, I would rather be the PF on a short, busy flight (TEB-HPN).

 

[Frac Cap]

I can't speak for all the captains at FLOPS, but a lot of us along with myself are starting to do days. The beginning of my tour I flip a coin (no matter what it is, my partner always wins the toss) and the winner choses whether he will fly, or work the radios. I let them choose right or left seat for flying. That way, we are not always swapping headsets every leg.

Not that this is the case in you instance. But I have only heard of captains being stick hogs if the co-pilot is new to the plane, not doing his job right, or being difficult.

Hope this give you some insight.

 

[jetwash]

At Flight Options I switch seats every other day.

One day I do all the flying the next day my FO is in the left seat and does all the flying.

Only when we have one of those special airports or situations where I have to fly according to the SOP's. I then give him extra leg to even it all up.

 

[kman]

I fly every other leg in the excel. THe big thing I noticed is a huge difference in how uptight and rigid some guys are. For example 2.5 hour ferry leg, not my leg, I pull out an article I wanted to read and guy tells me I need to be looking at my instruments? WTF? Another example is, we were backing up another company's flight and Cap wanted me to sit out in the airplane for an hour and a half with the apu running b4 the departure of the flight we were backing up. I asked why we shouldn't just get the plane ready and go back inside and fire it up 30 mins prior. He told me it was a sign of good faith? I have noticed a huge difference in culture on this side of the industry compared to the airlines.

 

[skyismyoffice]

At FLOPS most Capts. switch seats every other day.

 

[Jack Mehoff]

I fly every other leg in the excel. THe big thing I noticed is a huge difference in how uptight and rigid some guys are. For example 2.5 hour ferry leg, not my leg, I pull out an article I wanted to read and guy tells me I need to be looking at my instruments? WTF? Another example is, we were backing up another company's flight and Cap wanted me to sit out in the airplane for an hour and a half with the apu running b4 the departure of the flight we were backing up. I asked why we shouldn't just get the plane ready and go back inside and fire it up 30 mins prior. He told me it was a sign of good faith? I have noticed a huge difference in culture on this side of the industry compared to the airlines.

the impression i am getting is a "my airplane" complex with some capts that are from GA only backgrounds. The airline/ret. military guys are fun to fly with and just out to have a fun week.

 

[DO-82 driver]

K,

Just keep in mind that the Company has a policy about reading the paper or a magazine in the cockpit.

If there are pax onboard I adhere to the policy, empty legs, read whatever you want.

If a pax comes up and finds you reading a magazine anything can happen.

Please don't put the guy you are flying with in that situation. It has happened in the past and people will not be given a second chance.

Jack, the Company has changed in recent years and people are realizing that it simply not worth getting in trouble for doing things that are blantantly against written Company policy. Its just not worth it. You can still have fun just follow the rules.

 

[kman]

K,

Just keep in mind that the Company has a policy about reading the paper or a magazine in the cockpit.

If there are pax onboard I adhere to the policy, empty legs, read whatever you want.

If a pax comes up and finds you reading a magazine anything can happen.

Please don't put the guy you are flying with in that situation. It has happened in the past and people will not be given a second chance.

Jack, the Company has changed in recent years and people are realizing that it simply not worth getting in trouble for doing things that are blantantly against written Company policy. Its just not worth it. You can still have fun just follow the rules.

I wouldn't even try with people on board, but on the empty 2.5 hour ferry leg I was referring to makes me think how much of a difference there is between of the culture of this world compared to my previous one.

 

[Jack Mehoff]

DO, I wasn't meaning fun as in pushing the rules I ment it as they don't have the "my airplane" complex the Pure GA back ground guys seem to have. My original observation was that they seem to be of the mind set the capt will always fly and if you are good you get to fly one or 2 legs a tour.

I agree with never pulling out a USAtoday with pax in the back

 

[fischman]

Jack,

I would stand up for yourself man!!! Let the Captain know he's being a stick hog. If all else fails, lay on the sarcasm. Without saying anything, pull out your license, show him the type rating, and put it back in your wallet.

If he doesn't get the hint he's a jerk, and you should post his name on the 1108 message boards and let the flogging begin.

(It wasn't me was it???)

 

[Willy21]

I flew with a guy last tour that was that way also Jack, same fleet as you. ( I bet most of the guys that have issues are from the 1000) Short ferry of about 15 minutes folowed by a pax leg. We get the airplane ready and he throws his headset in the left seat. I guess I will fly from the right seat, no big deal. On the taxi we get to the t/o brief and he says he will fly it since it is a short leg and he has not flown that tail number in 6 months. I start to laugh at him and say your the boss. He then gets pissy with me the rest of the day for laughing at him.

I know it has been posted on the 1108, but as ATP's do we really need a warm-up leg?

 

[theskyking]

I'm in the XL, and so far haven't had any trouble what-so-ever as far as who is flying. Most of the guys ask which seat I want and none of them care which legs they fly. I usually just grab the right seat because I know what the view is like from the left side already, and more importantly, I hate having to readjust everything each leg.

 

[NachoMamma]

100 Hours for New Captains???

Also, if you're flying with a new Captain, he must do all the pax legs until he has 100hr in the a/c.

Where is that written? It isn't in the FOM.

 

[DO-82 driver]

I guess I was thinking about the time when we were hiring Captains-off-the-street. FOM pg 2-139 has a nice chart for all future references.

 

[Captain Morgan]

Don't feel to bad, seems to be a Corporate thing in general. I flew 91 corporate and the FO was a switch bi*ch the whole time, never got to fly. Now I'm at 135 and it's a little better but now they won't allow the f/o to takeoff and land. It's rediculous to think an f/o will get proficient on the airplane not being able to fly it. Honestly, if the captain had a problem and was down for the count, the landing wouldn't be pretty. I feel I'm an average "stick" and I'm not new to jet aircraft as I have 1300 turbine in jets. Never had a problem 121 either, every other leg was swapped.

CM

 

[FLYLOW22]

A search of the Union board would most likely yield you a few dozen threads on the topic with a few hundred responses.

Every reason under the sun is given...

Some right, some wrong... all valid.

 

[fischman]

A search of the Union board would most likely yield you a few dozen threads on the topic with a few hundred responses.

Every reason under the sun is given...

Some right, some wrong... all valid.

Look at Flylow on his political like response. He's a stick hog!!!

YYYYYEEEEEEEAAAAAAASSSSSSSSsssssss!!!!!

I souldn't do that to ya FlyLow. Let's go get a :beer: , and if we are lucky, we'll run into a imp: who could introduce us to his . Afterwards, depending on the amount of :beer: we drink, one of us (you) might have to uke: . The thing to be careful of, is to make sure your wife doesn't find out because she would go :nuts: with the :uzi: , and put a cap in yo a$$ which will make you :blush: . But don't worry bro, I won't say a word.

 

[CRJFlyer]

How do the "high time airline "guys feel if they get into a plane and the Captain won't thet them fly?? I ask because I know there are plenty of retired/furloughed/or just quite 121. guys that probably run into this situation.

I ask because I'm former 121 with about 5 yrs. in a CRJ and about 400hrs in a 400A. Most of my time is in jets and although I'm a fairly relaxed guy I think I'd be pretty sarcastic by day 5,6,or7.

 

[Jack Mehoff]

I flew with a guy last tour that was that way also Jack, same fleet as you. ( I bet most of the guys that have issues are from the 1000) Short ferry of about 15 minutes folowed by a pax leg. We get the airplane ready and he throws his headset in the left seat. I guess I will fly from the right seat, no big deal. On the taxi we get to the t/o brief and he says he will fly it since it is a short leg and he has not flown that tail number in 6 months. I start to laugh at him and say your the boss. He then gets pissy with me the rest of the day for laughing at him.

I know it has been posted on the 1108, but as ATP's do we really need a warm-up leg?

haha yeah the "warm up leg" thats a common one. "oh we are going to teb next today I need a warm up leg" its funny. I have noticed more the just one guy being the stick hog. I am glad to see I am not the only one that notices this. Just a different culture then the airlines. I do love working for NJA though. My thanks to all the pre 05 guys that made it possible for me.

 

[RNObased]

IOn the taxi we get to the t/o brief and he says he will fly it since it is a short leg and he has not flown that tail number in 6 months. I start to laugh at him and say your the boss. He then gets pissy with me the rest of the day for laughing at him.

I know it has been posted on the 1108, but as ATP's do we really need a warm-up leg?

That tail number??? Wow, I would have laughed at him also. He deserves it.

 

[Abbey]

I like the Warm Up Captains as well. This is usually followed by the "you need to think about this when you upgrade" talk. I then ask how much time they have flying jets, and that's when I start to laugh. Not one of those guys came from a lengthy 121 background. Don't get me wrong, I know jerks, wierdos, and bad pilots in the 121 realm as well. If a CA only lets me fly ferry legs and tells me that is the way it is going to be, I just tell him I don't need to fly at all the entire trip as he/she deems me unsafe to run an autopilot. Makes for a fun 7 day. Especially when you point out every other leg what part of the SOP's or FOM that they either forgot or disregarded. :laugh:

 

[fraitguy]

Wow. You guys really opened up my eyes to the frac world of flying. Are you paired-up with the same person for all seven days? What if you have a serious personality conflict? How does this get resolved?

 

[learflyer]

I had a dude in the cockpit once said as he was handing me a bottle of hand sanitizer after I sneezed: "please don't contribute to the germs of society". No joke!

 

[DO-82 driver]

Captain Monk!!!!

 

[CA1900]

...Makes for a fun 7 day. Especially when you point out every other leg what part of the SOP's or FOM that they either forgot or disregarded. :laugh:

LOL... had a guy a while back that I could tell I was just making uncomfortable. Nothing unsafe, just doing things different enough from the way he'd do it. He pretty well let me do my thing, but I could tell he was bristling. (I was doing crazy things like climbing at the profile speeds, versus the ~40 knots slower he was climbing at... )

So we're coming in on an published arrival, cleared to 15,000. The chart has an Expect to cross XXXXX at 10,000 a little down the road, so I programmed the box to give me a path to that point (about 3.2 degrees), and followed it.

I was going down at about 2300fpm, and he finally piped up: "Could you reduce the descent rate? You don't need to come down that fast."

"Sure, I can do that. I was just descending with that expect-to-cross in mind, but I'll ease it up if you like."

... not 5 seconds later ...

"EJA123, cross XXXXX at 10,000."


I re-joined my vertical path. Neither one of us said a word.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Okay, if we're going to play the Corporate vs. Airline thing, I love it when the other guy (usually a retired legacy Captain) is given a descent and immediately reaches for the speedbrake handle. "You were a 757/767 guy, am I right?"

As to Jack's thread starter, I don't find any particular pattern to who flies how much based on whether they were corporate, airline, or military. Like most things in fractional flying, it's the luck of the draw. The only common thing I've found after 8 years of this is: Ex-airline guys think this job is hard work, ex-military guys are happy to have a stable retirement job, and ex-corporate guys know this is the easiest gig in the business.:bomb: