Quick pinnacle upgrades?

[20sx]

What, someone lie on here?!?!?! Every now and then, I do check the posting history of people on here. I've read his strategy a number of posts again about not going there. While he didn't really lie, he didn't really tell all....
I know it's going to suck and so does everyone else. Management has some number in their head of how many flights it's okay to cancel. The penalty must still be less than the price of a new contract. I don't know how bad it has to get until they are serious about a new contract, but it seems many companies can get by on ridiculously low pilots and still eek by.

Thanks for all replies and PM, I just want what ALL people who go to Pinnacle want--PIC.

 

[dondk]

I know, this has been talked about before. I'm planning to start there next month, with the hope that after about 5 months on the line I'll have the time to upgrade. However, it worries me that 2 airplanes are leaving a month and that the 900's are coming only at 1 a month starting in Nov. Does anyone think the quick upgrades will be possible once they are in negative growth (at least for the next 7-8 months)?

my .02 to make this interesting.
PNCL has to have negative growth, it is fact not fiction. Why? well, they cannot staff the current 129 aircraft, XJ can't take deliveries because they cannot staff it either. In back room discussions the 17 leaving are not leaving at the rate initially suggested. They may not leave at all.

Initial (initial) DAL staffing is 8:1 and then 5:1. The 900's were to start at one a month, although in more back room discussions, it was 1 per month for 2-3 months then 4-5 per month. Last one on the property probably by April with more behind them.

Staffing... PNCL lost about 250 pilots so far this year, they are trying to interview 30 per week, hire maybe 15 if they are lucky. of the 15, maybe 10 show to class. Of the 10 that make it to class, 7-8 actually make it to the line. If you do the math, they cannot staff. Negative growth will be necessary to balance the staffing.

the better question to ask, how many PNCL pilots are flying over 90 hours, how many time out in a month, how many are JM daily?

As for days off for the junior guys, anyone who has been at PNCL for more than a year knows it is hit or miss. some months had great days off, then 2 months later the top line is 16 days off. Quickly how some forget the 10 day off lines with 32 hour sits in BGR or MLI.

the other factor is the mentor program, they should be able to turn those out starting in nov. Once that starts and depending on participation, the "quick" upgrade may climb again, not too high, but maybe just out of reach for a few more months.

if you have the time, I would consider other options, some have been mentioned. Unless you live in domicile and have an "in" at your next airline already. Also, note that some of those hiring have already dropped or have no PIC requirement.

 

[BOHICAgain]

there will be NO contract worth while because there will always be some starry eyed punk that will do anything just to fly for $20/h

Yeah thats the exact reason why there is no new contract blame the young guys..every guy out here looking to start their airline carrer should stay and flight instruct until every single airline 1st year pay reaches 30 an hour... how about during contract negotiations we stand up and fight for better 1st year pay instead of just thinking about what am I getting or what am I loosing

 

[Smarta$$]

You think I am being to negative about pinnacle? If you come here, it will take 2.5 months to make it through OE, because of reserve another 2-3 months to get the 100 hours of FO time before you can bid captain, another 2 months for a class date, 2.5 months to get all the way through captain OE, BEFORE YOU GET CAPTAIN PAY! That is 9-10 months at 20.73 dollars per hour. On reserve you will most likely not break guarantee and not much more in training either. So 9-10 months at 1554 dollars (give or take) a month. Then you will spend the next 2-3 years on reserve.

That all assumes that you have 3400TT, 1400ME and 900 turbine before you get here. If you have less, it will take much longer.

Also, we are the lowest paid jet FO's in the industry. Period. With no contract in sight, at all. On top of being the lowest paid, you will wait 14.5 months to get second year pay, 26.5 months to get third year pay 38.5 months for fourth and so on. Your yearly raise does not take affect until 12 mos from your checkride EVERY YEAR. Compare that to most large regionals. They get an extra 2.5 months EVERY year out of EVERY pilot at last years pay.

Our pilots have had no raise in over 3 years, again no contract, our management lies all the time, they forced pref bid on us even though our agreement prohibits pref bid at this time and then went on to brag about implimenting it(in a DOT filling, I believe),

Break

We are using money that Pinnacle pilots and other pinnacle employees earned this corporation to finance 15-30 shiny new planes for another company that will have no benifit to our employees, all the while telling us that there is not enough money in the till to pay us anything but industry bottom wages, Inside management trading like you can't believe(mostly selling right now), bleeding money to NWA for cancellations, Violated our agreement blatently with regard to vacation slide, no min day, no duty rigs, NO TRIP DROPS OR TRADES BEING APROVED, and much much more.

Dondk, pinnacle needs negative growth. But you said they may not give our planes to Mesaba. I know these are not your decisions, but they are contradictory. Personally, I think the planes will go to Mesaba, But maybe later or at a slower pace.

The fact that most smart pilots are totally avoiding 9E is the only leverage we have to get an agreement. Any 9E pilot that refers another pilot for the incentive is just shouting us all in the foot.

Sorry if you disagree, but I dont think I am being "too" negative.

For those that think about comming here just for the quick PIC, it only takes an attack or a recession to make you stay here alot longer than you planned. That happened to alot of people not to many years ago.

Personally, I think Mesaba is the much better bet right now. Lots going for Mesaba and upgrades will be very short soon.

 

[DTWFO]

Why not? You did, Is not like you didn't know the conditions, pay or the way the company treats the pilots, It's always been a well known fact. He is looking for the same thing that you were looking for, 121 Jet PIC time. I understand the conditions of the job (I was there for six years) but to tell people "Don't do what I did" specially when because of going to PCL, now you are applying to you dream jobs. They are looking for the same thing as you, the shortest time to be able to mark "boxes" on applications not for their retirement job
Smarta$$ and DTWFO. You guys spend too much time talking trash about the company that has put you in the position to be able to mark the "box"

Sorry, but I have to respond to this one. First of all, I don't "spend too much time" on Flight Info. In fact, I rarely post on this website unless I can either help someone out with an answer that I have personal knowledge of, or to steer someone clear of something that they will regret later. You've posted more than twice as many times on here in the last year than I have over the last four years, so maybe it's you that is "spending too much time on here". I could really care less what anyone thinks on here because most of this is total garbage. However, when someone asks a question about a company that I have personal knowledge of, I feel obligated to tell them what it's really like...not some sugar coated version that will get someone into a situation that they will regret later. When I came to Pinnacle I did NOT know how the pilots were treated and the way the company viewed things. That's why I feel the need to at least tell people the truth. If you don't believe me, or you think I'm just making all this stuff up, or you think "it's really not that bad", then come here...I don't care. You'll find out soon enough for yourself what it's really like...that I guarentee! It's called learning from your mistakes, and if I can save someone from making a mistake, then I will post on here and share my experience. There is no reason to go to a place like Pinnacle in todays market. There are better airlines out there that will treat you much better and also have quick upgrades. Good luck!

 

[Dumb Pilot]

If you come here, it will take 2.5 months to make it through OE, because of reserve another 2-3 months to get the 100 hours of FO time before you can bid captain, another 2 months for a class date, 2.5 months to get all the way through captain OE, BEFORE YOU GET CAPTAIN PAY!

You are saying that the reserve F/O's are not flying then? I would recheck those stats since everyone in PCL is flying 90 hours a month. You are understaffed remember? And the reason why folks are taking this long during OE is because of the experience levels, not because of the reserve since they get paired with their check airman on his or her line which is NOT a reserve line, people are taking 50-60 hours of OE to get them through (you forgot that I was a check airman there, I guess) you want these folks trained or just signed off, you can't have it both ways

Also, we are the lowest paid jet FO's in the industry

You knew this before you came to PCL

We are using money that Pinnacle pilots and other pinnacle employees earned this corporation to finance 15-30 shiny new planes for another company that will have no benifit to our employees, all the while telling us that there is not enough money in the till to pay us anything but industry bottom wages, Inside management trading like you can't believe(mostly selling right now), bleeding money to NWA for cancellations, Violated our agreement blatently with regard to vacation slide, no min day, no duty rigs, NO TRIP DROPS OR TRADES BEING APROVED, and much much more.

Again, this is typical of this so called regional industry. you seem to forget how it was during the hiring boom of pre 9/11 this is not the first time this happens at PCL and it is not the ONLY regional where the understaffing pains are felt

For those that think about comming here just for the quick PIC, it only takes an attack or a recession to make you stay here alot longer than you planned. That happened to alot of people not to many years ago.

I was one of those people (you seem to forget) In the hiring pool for one of the legacies pre 9/11, I thought that my stay in PCL was as long as it took to get a class date assigned. But instead, I spent six years there. If there is another catastrophe of the proportions of 9/11 God forbid, you shall see mainline guys back in PCL property again. That is the nature of this business, I also saw the downturn of 90/91 Also was on the hiring pool for a legacy back then that doesn't even exists now, welcome to aviation

First of all, I don't "spend too much time" on Flight Info

I said that you two spend "too much time posting negative stuff"

When I came to Pinnacle I did NOT know how the pilots were treated and the way the company viewed things.

Who's fault is that? is not like the information wasn't out there.

It's called learning from your mistakes,

Why don't you just leave? You can still fix this mistake, Is not like there aren't jobs available in other regionals with better contracts and pay. Or is it because you are waiting on the fast 1000 PIC to go to a major? Again as bad as it is (I also have first hand knowledge of how bad it is) you will get your 1000 PIC faster at PCL that if you go somewhere else and that is why you are willing to endure the horror, isn't it?

how about during contract negotiations we stand up and fight for better 1st year pay instead of just thinking about what am I getting or what am I loosing

AMEN, do it


I'm not saying that you don't have a legitimate point with your posts, because you do. But your strategy to keep the staffing down through scarring people off stating conditions that are not unique to PCL is not going to work because it sounds like a "rant" And like you very eloquently said

"I could really care less what anyone thinks on here because most of this is total garbage."

After a while that is just what rants sound like


Back your MEC, that is the way to fix things

 

[Flywrite]

So fellas...just hypothetically...if someone with the upgrade mins were to start class in September and bid CA what's the best guess for when that person would see Captain pay?

And yes, this hypothetical person is familiar with all the negative aspects of being a newhire CA.

 

[Smarta$$]

So fellas...just hypothetically...if someone with the upgrade mins were to start class in September and bid CA what's the best guess for when that person would see Captain pay?

And yes, this hypothetical person is familiar with all the negative aspects of being a newhire CA.

Very good estimate,

2.5 months till completion of FO OE, 2-3 months reserve until you can bid for CA, 2 months to start CA class, 2.5 months to complete upgrade through OE.

Our reserves are not flying 90. I did 6 months reserve and never ONCE broke guarantee.

My initial went straight through, never cancelled a sim, never failed a single event, did OE in four days for a total of 26 hours blocked, and it still took 2.5 months. Many others had sims cancelled, retrains, long breaks for OE because of not enough instructors, and they took well over three months to complete initial OE.

That is 9-10 months till CA pay, and 14.5 mos till second year pay.

Oh, you will get about 1554 dallors a month until then.

 

[dondk]

Dondk, pinnacle needs negative growth. But you said they may not give our planes to Mesaba. I know these are not your decisions, but they are contradictory. Personally, I think the planes will go to Mesaba, But maybe later or at a slower pace.

I agree with everything you stated, you have a real good idea of what is happening at PNCL.

let me clarify my statement though.

Negative growth is inevitable at PNCL, the scheduling chairman also stated that a few weeks ago.

Mesaba and our 17 jets. During my stint on nonconnah, in more than a few meetings it was alluded that those 17 were going no where anytime soon. They may all leave, I do think that may happen but not on the schedule NW set. Mesaba hinted a few times they could not take them and they would sit and collect dust. With their 900 growth and the need for 900's to take the DC-9 flying that is more important than a 50 seater that is just going to do what PNCL does already.

Add now, the brilliant staff of nonconnah that figures PNCL can still operate them with the current staffing. I have never heard uncle phil tell NWA no... it is not in his vocabulary, he tells them sure thing then comes down on director row to make it happen. Director row passes the buck to everyone else and tells uncle phil.. no problem we are on it. I saw that personally... simply amazing... just lie if necessary so you don't do a carpet dance in the bosses office.

Bottom line... something HAS to give... the money is on negative growth. A quantity of jets will be parked somewhere or given back with a note.. "sorry we can't operate them because we have no one to do it."
At some point, it will be cheaper to park some jets than take 1.4 million hits every couple of months. PNCL only makes about 20 million a year in profit. They already are given NWA about 6-7 million in penalties and the year is not over.

the other theory, PNCL is low on cash. At some point BK may be the only option.

finally, many of the current mgmt have bonuses tied into their compensation packages. There have been no bonuses because of the penalties. How much longer does anyone think some of them are going to last with no financial incentives?

 

[dondk]

So fellas...just hypothetically...if someone with the upgrade mins were to start class in September and bid CA what's the best guess for when that person would see Captain pay?

And yes, this hypothetical person is familiar with all the negative aspects of being a newhire CA.

IF (key word) you have met all the hard minimums. You can be offered the left seat before completing class. All they would do is move you to the left seat in the sim.

so.. if you have a sept 1 class date, you would be looking at a Dec 1 vacancy and could complete everything about the middle of Nov.

downside... if a pilot chooses the left seat in initial, they are NOT considered a "street" captain. They are considered a FO unless they specifically hire and assign you prior to the start of class. You would see yourself listed as a FO on a vacancy until the next one came out. Therefore FO pay until Fed ride. If street CA, CA pay from checkride completion.

Now.. here is where it gets sticky
option 1
if you are hired a "street captain" if you are unsuccessful in training they do not have to offer you a FO slot, they can simply separate.

option 2
now if you are hired as an FO, move to the left seat before leaving training. If unsuccessful then, you have the option to move back to the right seat and it will show as a training failure but you are still employed. You will not be allowed to upgrade for a year.

option 3
you start as a FO, move to CA during initial... find it is not your cup of tea and move back to FO before any checking event.
you are retained, it will count as a failure (withdrawal), they may hold you to a year seat lock and when you attempt a second time if THEN you are unsuccessful you are subject to termination.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

That is 9-10 months till CA pay, and 14.5 mos till second year pay.

Oh, you will get about 1554 dallors a month until then.

I see your point, it is absolutely horrible


You PFTrs and generation Xrs really make me laugh, you are posting captain position in less than a year as a complaint?

I'm officially signing off this thread

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Get what? That two individuals that post negativity continuously start sounding like the boy that cried wolf?
Just read this thread, the more they say "NO" the more people ask "can I get MEM right after training" It is NOT on FI that the PCL contract will be fixed. The pilots in this industry have to come to a realization that without each other (NWAMEC, XJMEC, and PCLMEC) there will be NO contract worth while because there will always be some starry eyed punk that will do anything just to fly for $20/h.



I understand what you are saying PCL-128 But you have been around enough to know that if you hit them with the lights at the right angle, you can see the strings and if you follow the strings the other end is in Eagan. We have to realize that the respective MEC's from the red tail system (that applies to every airline for that matter) have to start working together on this, without the support of ALL pilots under the brand and the backup of ALPA central we are just playing catch up with individuals that have great resources to develop strategies. The system of different MEC's working on their own and in the blind with respect to what the other MEC's are doing doesn't work, the system of pilot volunteers developing strategies against big corporation that hire expert strategists doesn't work and they will always stay ahead a thousand paces
When ALPA threatens, management laughs because lately they just bend time after time. The governor of NYC for example, listens when the garbage collectors talk. Why? those folks really mean it when they say "You mess with one, you mess with all" You know what? I'm done getting worked up about it. I'm sure the inflatable rat will work for you, that is assuming that there is shame within the management ranks

Excellent point... another to do list item on the Fix it ALPA Show....


As you read this thread you can see how determined management is NOT to increase hourly rates and work rules... they'd rather have negative growth??? Now you can see what you're dealing with....