AOPA not happy with Delta

[737 Pylt]

I hope your airline goes out of buisness or lays you off and your forced to work in GA maybe then you could actually gain some perspective about things. What makes you so sure you're going to be getting the jobs. Typical airline pilot that has to fly a big ole airliner and thinks he's a better pilot because of it. I hate to burst your bubble though the airlines are doing this simply to put pressure on the fractionals but our customers aren't leaving even if they have to pay more. They probably won't even notice the increase. Enjoy your future furlough!

It is YOU'RE, you dumba$$!
At least if you're going to insult someone, get it right!
Now get back to serving coffee and sodas and standing out on that rain soaked tarmac!
Oh yeah, and get my damn bags boy!

737

 

[Lear70]

If GA dries up, this will end. Hiring minimums can only go so low; once cockpits go unfilled when airlines will hire applicants with wet commercial tickets, they will have to revert to airline sponsored ab-inito training.

Ummm... we're already there.

We're at the BEGINNING of the major airline hiring curve again.

Northwest has barely 1,000 "qualified" pilot applications and will have to hire over 2,000 pilots over the next 5 years.

United's in the same boat.

Southwest has reduced their minimums.

And we haven't even STARTED talking about the fact that the source of their new-hires are the regionals, who are ALREADY hiring 300-400 hour pilots straight out of the puppy mills.

What will happen at the regional level when all their CA's go to the Majors, they can't fill the left seat with insurance-minimum pilots, can't fill their new-hire ranks because there are NO CMEL pilots out there looking for jobs, and they can't spool up ab-initio training fast enough to cover?

I predict 2010 is going to be the worst year in aviation history for airline cancellations at the regional level, and a banner year for the majors recapturing lost wages.

 

[Allen1]

It is YOU'RE, you dumba$$!
At least if you're going to insult someone, get it right!
Now get back to serving coffee and sodas and standing out on that rain soaked tarmac!
Oh yeah, and get my damn bags boy!

737

I'm so sorry I made a spelling error on a friggin message board you piece of SH$$. Oh and I don't serve coffee or anything to the pax they serve themselves and usually get us stuff. It's all right I know you're just jealous. You airline guys have the worst attitude around and think you're better then everbody else in the world because you fly a heavier airplane and I'm sick and tired of your friggen attitudes. Oh and I have an umbrella for the rain so I stay nice and dry so don't worry to much about me. Yeah unloading a couple of bags is such hard work, maybe you should try doing some real work once in awhile.

 

[Coool Hand Luke]

I have another idea.

Let's charge all the cargo and freight haulers a special "night" fee, since the FAA has to pay controllers to staff towers/tracons/centers all night long when they only provide service for FedEx/UPS/etc.

User fee's are a dumb idea, just like a "night" fee would be, but if y'all think opening the door is such a good idea I hope you are prepared for "the progression".

 

[TWA Dude]

The GA/Bizjet crowd has been riding on the airlines tax coat-tails for yrs. The airline industry is suffering. This is a quick cure.

Ha! The "cure" is worse than the original problem.

The long term impact will be a shortage of qual'ed aircrews in the US, but that will take yrs.

As somebody else already wrote, that time has arrived, just not yet at the major's level.

And those of you cheering that there aren't enough pilots to fly new RJs are being very short-sighted. The majors never replace RJs with Mainline jets unless they can yield a profit. The cause may be incompetent management but the result is the same: more stagnation for the rest of us.

 

[TWA Dude]

The point was how disparate the treatment was. A blip is a blip.

True, a blip is a blip, but if you change the status-quo and increase the tax on a few blips those blips not only will dissappear from the screen but from existance. Net result: less tax money collected and airlines taxed more.

At the busiest airports we need to prohibit GA,...

Now you're being elitist. GA only has a handful of slots as it is. It's like taking a major highway and making it for semitrucks only. Afterall, trucks carry necessary goods to fuel the economy and generate higher revenue than lowly passenger cars. Why do we even let cars on those busy roads in the first place -- they just slow down the trucks!

This is the U.S., darnit, and even though it costs $100/hr to rent a 172 it's still a heck of a lot less than in Europe. I don't have a lot of disposable income but once every month or so I like to take people up for a ride and introduce them to the wonders of aviation. User fees would likely make me give up that endeavor. (And it won't matter how wealthy my pax are since I still have to split the costs.)

It is ridicules that a Citation with 2 pax on board lands at LGA in a slot that could have been filled with a 737.

No, it's the American Way. LGA is already slot-controlled and if it's anything like ORD every GA slot isn't even utilized.

Bottom line, killing the GA industry will ultimately not benefit the airlines and very likely will harm them. And this isn't about paying one's fair share since the airlines pass costs on to the pax. Hiring a bizjet or even a prop still costs the pax a heck of a lot more than an airline ticket.

 

[popgoesbubble]

Wow, you are a real class act...You have some very serious mental issues, I would seek professional help ASAP. Wishing someone would lose their job is one of the sickist things I have ever read on this board.

You need to appologize, then seek help.

Hey Jetsetter maybe you should Pull your hair back into a PonyTail and fly Allen to SFO for some Sensitivity training and a bowl of Organic food. Dude this is a message board get over it. Whats next you gonna go on You tube for the next Democratic debate and ask Edwards if he thinks its a good idea that the goverment get involved in monitoring the F.I boards.

 

[737 Pylt]

I'm so sorry I made a spelling error on a friggin message board you piece of SH$$.

Try not to let it happen again!

Oh and I don't serve coffee or anything to the pax they serve themselves and usually get us stuff. It's all right I know you're just jealous.

You're absolutely right......Where do I sign up to sit in that really cool fbo for 10 hours at a shot!

You airline guys have the worst attitude around and think you're better then everbody else in the world because you fly a heavier airplane and I'm sick and tired of your friggen attitudes.

Try losing yours first. I know it must be tough dealing with getting wet, snowed on, emptying lav's out and carrying muffy's bag through all the nasty weather! Oh yeah, and I'll let you know when your 5 days off a month are!

Oh and I have an umbrella for the rain so I stay nice and dry so don't worry to much about me. Yeah unloading a couple of bags is such hard work, maybe you should try doing some real work once in awhile.

Getting up to to take my break is doing some real work!:smash:

737

 

[Brett Hull]

At the busiest airports we need to prohibit GA,...

Just so you know who you're trying to ban, it's the Citation picking up or dropping off business men who have purchased full fare (sometimes last minute), very high yield international tickets, from your airline.

That's the only reason we fly into Kennedy; it sure ain't for the convenience to town.

And Allen, while I commend your passion, your language has the same effect of stereotyping us corporate guys as a bunch of unprofessional idiots the same way they think everyone thinks they all work 10 days a month and bring home $300K.

 

[Allen1]

Try not to let it happen again!


You're absolutely right......Where do I sign up to sit in that really cool fbo for 10 hours at a shot!


Try losing yours first. I know it must be tough dealing with getting wet, snowed on, emptying lav's out and carrying muffy's bag through all the nasty weather! Oh yeah, and I'll let you know when your 5 days off a month are!



Getting up to to take my break is doing some real work!:smash:

737

10 days off a month huh. Sorry to disappoint you but I think the average is 15 days off for us. The 10 days off is more like an airline schedule, nice try though.

Actually I don't really sit in the FBO that long, but when I do it's kind of relaxing watching movies and surfin the web and eating my free food.

You know what you should ban us from all the big airports like ATL, JFK, IAD and so on. The last time I flew into JFK we were the only corporate jet around and we were dropping someone off to catch an INTL flight. If they do this maybe there might be a bigger demand for our larger planes for we can take them over there ourselves.

Why don't you just admit that GA is not the reason for all the delays? There should be a tax per passenger on the airplane that way every person is contributing equally. Which means each airline will pay more but that's only because they have more seats and wether you like it or not airlines create the most traffic. It's time you come to terms with this.

 

[Jetsetter]

Hey Jetsetter maybe you should Pull your hair back into a PonyTail and fly Allen to SFO for some Sensitivity training and a bowl of Organic food. Dude this is a message board get over it. Whats next you gonna go on You tube for the next Democratic debate and ask Edwards if he thinks its a good idea that the goverment get involved in monitoring the F.I boards.

How do you conclude from me saying that what Allen said about wishing someone lose their job, that I think the government should monitor the internet ???

I am all for messing around on FI, that is why I am here, as long as it is for fun. However, when someone wishes another pilot lose their job that is just sick. Have you ever been furloughed ?? Well, I have and it sucks. So when I see some idiot wishing it on someone I will not let that pass.

I still think he has some major issues and should seek professional help.

 

[737 Pylt]

10 days off a month huh.

I wrote 5 numb nuts! RTFQ!

Sorry to disappoint you but I think the average is 15 days off for us. The 10 days off is more like an airline schedule, nice try though.

So which fbo do you get your false info from?

Actually I don't really sit in the FBO that long, but when I do it's kind of relaxing watching movies and surfin the web and eating my free food.

And you'll wait there for hours at a time, and when the pax DO eventually show up, usually late, you better greet them with a "Hi maam, can I get your bag for ya?"

You know what you should ban us from all the big airports like ATL, JFK, IAD and so on. The last time I flew into JFK we were the only corporate jet around and we were dropping someone off to catch an INTL flight. If they do this maybe there might be a bigger demand for our larger planes for we can take them over there ourselves.

Great,then you can screw up the international airports then too!

Why don't you just admit that GA is not the reason for all the delays? There should be a tax per passenger on the airplane that way every person is contributing equally. Which means each airline will pay more but that's only because they have more seats and wether you like it or not airlines create the most traffic. It's time you come to terms with this.

I admit nothing putz!
You started this argument when you wished some poor guy out of work!
I tell you what......What is the first thing to go when a company gets into trouble? I'll give you a hint.....Its their corporate plane!
Now get back to scrubbing that toilet, and make sure threre's plenty of diet coke. Oh yeah, that carpeting needs to be swept as well, so get out that vacuum cleaner!

737

 

[Coool Hand Luke]

......

 

[Coool Hand Luke]

737 Pylt:

The guys with the really good corporate jobs never talk about them. Suffice to say it does not include any of the negative things you describe. I'll just leave it at that.

 

[Allen1]

I wrote 5 numb nuts! RTFQ!


So which fbo do you get your false info from?


And you'll wait there for hours at a time, and when the pax DO eventually show up, usually late, you better greet them with a "Hi maam, can I get your bag for ya?"


Great,then you can screw up the international airports then too!


I admit nothing putz!
You started this argument when you wished some poor guy out of work!
I tell you what......What is the first thing to go when a company gets into trouble? I'll give you a hint.....Its their corporate plane!
Now get back to scrubbing that toilet, and make sure threre's plenty of diet coke. Oh yeah, that carpeting needs to be swept as well, so get out that vacuum cleaner!

737

What's the first thing to go when the economy starts to take a dive? I'm going to guess airline travel. Yeah it's so hard to greet you passengers with a hello and they usually wheel there own bag out or drive up to the plane. So now you're arguing good customer service is bad. Well you do work for an airline so that is a given. Every time I airline you guys prove why people choose to fly us. The customer service is horrible from the time you step foot in the terminal. But hey I guess you're proud of that.

 

[Allen1]

So tell me 737 pylt just what airports do we screw up I'd really like to know. I could list some airports that are screwed up but that is because the airlines not us. Keep dreaming though.

 

[igneousy2]

True, a blip is a blip, but if you change the status-quo and increase the tax on a few blips those blips not only will dissappear from the screen but from existance. Net result: less tax money collected and airlines taxed more.Now you're being elitist. GA only has a handful of slots as it is. It's like taking a major highway and making it for semitrucks only. Afterall, trucks carry necessary goods to fuel the economy and generate higher revenue than lowly passenger cars. Why do we even let cars on those busy roads in the first place -- they just slow down the trucks!

This is the U.S., darnit, and even though it costs $100/hr to rent a 172 it's still a heck of a lot less than in Europe. I don't have a lot of disposable income but once every month or so I like to take people up for a ride and introduce them to the wonders of aviation. User fees would likely make me give up that endeavor. (And it won't matter how wealthy my pax are since I still have to split the costs.)No, it's the American Way. LGA is already slot-controlled and if it's anything like ORD every GA slot isn't even utilized.

Bottom line, killing the GA industry will ultimately not benefit the airlines and very likely will harm them. And this isn't about paying one's fair share since the airlines pass costs on to the pax. Hiring a bizjet or even a prop still costs the pax a heck of a lot more than an airline ticket.

First off - thanks for a well thought out post - it is clear that some of the posters here have never made it past 3rd grade.

The charges on the blips that people are talking about right now wouldn't affect your C-172 pleasure flight. In order to save your C-172 pleasure flight "GA" needs to disassociate itself with the real target of these actions - the business jets. The idea of user fees has already reached V1 - the only thing to do is to make sure the parts of "general aviation" that you are speaking of do not get caught up in this. Most weekend warriors already have no desire to go to the airports I am speaking of - and are very rarely above FL180. AOPA and the GA community at large is making a huge mistake by lumping themselves in with BizJets. One of you has already stated that your customers "will just pay more and not even notice." so why not let them and save the C172 drivers.

I'm sorry, but there are a lot of Bizjets at all of the NYC airports, especially LGA and there seems to be more and more of them every day.


Later,

 

[Allen1]

First off why should our individual passengers pay more than any other individual passeger. Yeah the corporate jets are really taking over LGA and if they went away LGA would be delay free. Do you morons really believe this stuff?

 

[FlyDouglasJets]

Maybe someone should ask Southwest to stop getting their pos 737's up to 410 and doing .73. They've made the biggest speed bump there is.

only the 737NG can get to FL410, and that is a M.77/.78 airplane. Now, the 737-300/500, that turd is a whole diff story.

 

[Allen1]

This was posted on another thread.


The GA Trust Fund was set up for modernization. The FAA was budgeted 20% of the trust fund annually. Currently the FAA is using 60%.

The Fund is partially funded by fuel taxes:
Airlines pay .04 cents per gallon
Corp jets pay .21 cents per gallon
http://www.natca.org/assets/Document...esearch2.0.pdf

The FAA fact sheets show the airlines mainly use the 30 largest airports. Of these 30 airports, 90% is airline traffic. Of the remaining smaller airline airports, 50% is corp jet traffic. Of total ATC operations, 78% is airline related.

Airlines are receiving Federal bailout funds.
Airlines are getting subsidies to operate unprofitable routes.
Airlines are having landing fees waived to operate at certain hubs.
Airlines are getting preferential takeoff and landing priority.
The explosion of corporate jet sales is a direct result of the poor service provided by the airlines. They made their bed.....

Pretty hypocritical to ask corp jets to pay landing fees when they aren't having to pay them themselves

 

[737 Pylt]

First off why should our individual passengers pay more than any other individual passeger. Yeah the corporate jets are really taking over LGA and if they went away LGA would be delay free. Do you morons really believe this stuff?

Don't you have a toilet to clean or airplane struts to de grease?
Get a move on it boy! And maybe, just maybe, you'll get those 5 days off this month!


77

 

[737 Pylt]

737 Pylt:

The guys with the really good corporate jobs never talk about them. Suffice to say it does not include any of the negative things you describe. I'll just leave it at that.

Cool Hand Luke:
You're right, I'm ony giving this jock strap a hard time because he wished a furlough on some poor dude!
Allen1 is nothing more than a flight attendant sitting in the right seat of a corporate jet!

737

 

[AA717driver]

Don't you have a toilet to clean or airplane struts to de grease?
Get a move on it boy! And maybe, just maybe, you'll get those 5 days off this month!


77

And that's why most corporate pilots think airline pilots are a$$holes. In this case, they're right. (Unless you're friends with him, in which case it's ok to abuse him. )

This is a complex issue that can't be fixed by altering one single item.

Can my former bosses afford to pay higher landing fees at LAX for their G550? Sure. That G5 makes the same hole in the ATC system as a MD80. Why should they pay less?

Is Delta clogging up the N.E. with RJ's? Yep. Should they be penalized? No. Would I blame the FAA for placing a 100-seat restriction on traffic to the major airports in the N.E.? No.

Should the ATC system have been updated 10 years ago? Yep. It wasn't. Whaddya gonna do now?

The corporations don't have a problem strangling GA to save a few bucks and improve their bonuses. After GA is dead, they'll just move on to another victim and whine about the lack of qualified pilots to fill their RJ's.

Whether you're ex-mil or civilian, we all have an interest in preserving the GA system and our ability to climb in a 172 and go fly. Too many people have come before us and scorched the earth because they were selfish or ignorant. That shouldn't be our legacy to future pilots. TC

 

[Coool Hand Luke]

Just wanted to quote some figures (source: NATCA and DOT, from an August AIN article)

Turbine business aircraft average 370 hours per year per aircraft

Air Carrier aircraft average 3800 hours per year per aircraft

NATCA reports the following:

70% of airline delays are attributed to severe weather, which is exacerbated by the hub-and-spoke system.

The remaining 30% are attributed to airline staffing issues (hmmm, NWA comes to mind), air traffic controller staffing shortages and the airlines' own operations.

At the nations 10 busiest airports GA accounts for 4% of all operations.

So there are the numbers folks, for what it's worth. Besides, in my opinioin you could give the FAA a blank check and they still couldn't fix any of these problems. It would be like giving a drunk the keys to the liquor store.

On a side note, I just purchased two round trip tickets for $118 each. I could not have cared less about the tax that I had to pay on them and it sure beat the alternatives of either non-rev'ing or driving 8-hours with my five-year-old.

 

[texman]

I can't believe how many fools who work as airline pilots actually buy into the SmartSkies propaganda. What are the odds these same folks will bitch to high heaven when airline managers give themselves large bonuses for lowering their tax burden while the 1. average employee gets bumpkus, 2. 91/135 flying declines putting pilots back into the job market, and 3. nothing changes with the ATC system?

Corporate aircraft departing out of HPN/TEB/MMU are not the cause of delays at JFK/EWR/LGA, even departing over the same fixes. The cause of delays at JFK/EWR/LGA is an airline-controllable, saturation-level number of regional jet departures in far too compressed a time frame.

Fuel tax is a fair tax...anything else is bullsh!t.

I agree, I think the majors are getting away with murder. They are using the RJ's to make tons of money. Mabey if the RJ's went away or at least some. The sky would be alot less congested

 

[737 Pylt]

I agree, I think the majors are getting away with murder. They are using the RJ's to make tons of money.

The only ones making money on rj's are operators like mesa who get a fee for departure! RJ's are a losing proposition!
The casm for an rj is more than that of an MD88 or 757!

Mabey if the RJ's went away or at least some. The sky would be alot less congested

I can't argue with you there!

737