What has ALPA done for me lately?

[PCL_128]

I never said I was not involved. I am always on top of what is going on in the union. I always voice my opinion to my reps.

I have been asked many times to run for a position, but I have no desire to do so under the current structure.

How do you think most reps get involved? Most reps got angry about how the current leadership was running things and got involved to fix it. Personally, I was upset with the MEC leadership at PCL when I was an FO. So, I ran for office and worked to represent the interests of the pilots. You could do the same for your group. As a status rep, you would also be a member of the BOD and be able to vote on National issues. Refusing to run because you are unhappy with the current structure is counter-productive. Run for office and work to fix what you perceive to be flaws.

 

[PCL_128]

Sorry pal
I never voted for a concession ever.

I realize that. When I say "look in the mirror," I'm referring to the collective angry-ALPA-member contingent that wants to point fingers at National for the concessions that have taken place. Most of the guys that blame ALPA for their predicament are also the guys who voted YES to those same concessions. I know that everyone claims to have voted NO, but those 65% came from somewhere.

 

[Boeing747Driver]

How do you think most reps get involved? Most reps got angry about how the current leadership was running things and got involved to fix it. Personally, I was upset with the MEC leadership at PCL when I was an FO. So, I ran for office and worked to represent the interests of the pilots. You could do the same for your group. As a status rep, you would also be a member of the BOD and be able to vote on National issues. Refusing to run because you are unhappy with the current structure is counter-productive. Run for office and work to fix what you perceive to be flaws.

Well what did you accomplish?

 

[PCL_128]

Well what did you accomplish?

Why does it matter? Even if I had accomplished nothing, that doesn't mean that you couldn't have better luck. Plato once said that "[SIZE=-1]One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." You can choose to be governed by your inferiors and complain the whole way, or you can get involved in the political process and work to change things for the better. It's your choice.

To answer your question without getting into specifics, I represented dozens of pilots in disciplinary hearings, helped to steer the contract negotiations in a direction that I believe will be much more favorable to the average PCL pilot, and I believe that the organizing campaigns that I worked on will ultimately result in representation for pilots that truly need it. That's the Cliff's Notes version.
[/SIZE]

 

[Boeing747Driver]

You are still ignoring the fact that the rank-and-file voted for those concessions. Captain Woerth didn't hand down a proclamation from a throne in Herndon that imposed those concessions on the pilots. The pilots made a conscious decision to decimate their contracts. Duane just said, "alright, you want it, I'll sign it for you." The pilots want to place blame? Look in the mirror.

Ask the USAIR pilots how many of them had a chance to vote on eliminating their pensions. The answer is zero. It was done at the MEC level and signed off on by you know who.

 

[Boeing747Driver]

Why does it matter? Even if I had accomplished nothing, that doesn't mean that you couldn't have better luck. Plato once said that "[SIZE=-1]One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." You can choose to be governed by your inferiors and complain the whole way, or you can get involved in the political process and work to change things for the better. It's your choice.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]To answer your question without getting into specifics, I represented dozens of pilots in disciplinary hearings, helped to steer the contract negotiations in a direction that I believe will be much more favorable to the average PCL pilot, and I believe that the organizing campaigns that I worked on will ultimately result in representation for pilots that truly need it. That's the Cliff's Notes version.[/SIZE]

So you accomplished nothing to make ALPA a better organization. I don't have a problem with my local leadership. National is a cancer in our careers.

 

[PCL_128]

So you accomplished nothing to make ALPA a better organization.

I never had any desire to change anything in ALPA's national structure. I'm quite happy with it. You're the one that thinks ALPA is a "cancer" at the National level. If that's what you believe, then run on that platform to get elected and then go to work on that problem. Change starts at the local level.

National is a cancer in our careers.

National is made up of the "locals." The BOD is composed of the Status Reps at each LEC. The EC, EB, and National Officers are selected by the Status reps that you elect at the local level. This is reminiscent of American politics: when polled, Americans hate congress in general, but they love their own congressman. In actuality, there's no such thing as "ALPA National." All there is is a collection of Local reps.

 

[Boeing747Driver]

So you feel you were given equal treatment from national as a PCL pilot compared to a DAL pilot?

You don't feel regional pilots are given the short end of the stick from ALPA?

I really appreciate you youthful enthusiasm, but I can assure you your view of ALPA will change after you have 15-20 years dealing with them.

 

[PCL_128]

So you feel you were given equal treatment from national as a PCL pilot compared to a DAL pilot?

You don't feel regional pilots are given the short end of the stick from ALPA?

Short end of the stick? Not at all. If anything, ALPA gives regionals more than their fair share. Mainline pilot groups have to subsidize the regional MECs because the regional pilots don't bring in enough dues revenue to cover their own costs. Despite this, ALPA never denied us any resource that we ever requested. We had access to the same attorneys, same analysts, and same specialists that the mainline MECs had. We had more than enough money to take care of everything, and shortly after I left, the EC approved a $2 million grant to the PCL MEC for SPC activities. We always had access to the National Officers, and our Chairman spoke regularly with the President. This myth of substandard treatment of regional MECs is something concocted in the minds of RJDC supporters that litter this website. There's absolutely zero truth to it. Did you realize that one of the four National Officers is an American Eagle pilot?

I really appreciate you youthful enthusiasm, but I can assure you your view of ALPA will change after you have 15-20 years dealing with them.

And I can assure you, if you were to get involved and see how things truly work within the Association, then you'd be changing your point of view rather quickly. ALPA isn't some nebulous evil force in a land far, far away. It's your fellow pilots doing their best to do the right thing for the pilots they represent. They may not always get it right, but that's not because they're out to get you.

 

[Boeing747Driver]

Short end of the stick? Not at all. If anything, ALPA gives regionals more than their fair share. Mainline pilot groups have to subsidize the regional MECs because the regional pilots don't bring in enough dues revenue to cover their own costs. Despite this, ALPA never denied us any resource that we ever requested. We had access to the same attorneys, same analysts, and same specialists that the mainline MECs had. We had more than enough money to take care of everything, and shortly after I left, the EC approved a $2 million grant to the PCL MEC for SPC activities. We always had access to the National Officers, and our Chairman spoke regularly with the President. This myth of substandard treatment of regional MECs is something concocted in the minds of RJDC supporters that litter this website. There's absolutely zero truth to it. Did you realize that one of the four National Officers is an American Eagle pilot?

Wow:smash:

I am speechless. You must be one of the few regional pilots with this view in the country.

I spent 7.5 years at a regional and the very few with your view drank a few gallons of ALPA Kool Aid Daily.

 

[BoilerUP]

I am speechless. You must be one of the few regional pilots with this view in the country.

Probably because many regional pilots "only care about the upgrade" and have an extremely unrealistic view of exactly what ALPA can and cannot accomplish.

 

[ToThePain]

No we just get tired you guys waving your swiss army knives in our rubber life boat...




ALPA meaning each and every individually locally represented pilot group?




No, the MEC/NC poll the membership to see what they want, they try to deliever and then they offer that TA to the pilots to vote on democracy style...




Ok..so is it ALPA or pilots?



Folks this is called "I don't have the responsbility so therefore I can afford to say wahtever I feel like..."



Maybe you should be in management...



So is your problem with ALPA or the members..



Ok... this is the second time you blamed pilots... so c'mon tell us... is it pilots or ALPA...




ps. you think management cares if you have a mustang?

While I don't always agree with REZ he has some very good points. Why do the majority of pilots bitc& about ALPA and provide minimal physical support. Yes your pay dues but that IS NOT ENOUGH. How about going to a meeting every now or shut the $%^^ up. Pilots complain and yet they are not involved. It takes more than money to get what you want pass through legislation or through any contract negotiations. It takes congress/management to see that we are going to fight until the end to get what we want.

To quote AA767AV8TOR
Management will give you a nice big smile, put a big arm around you, and then knife you in the back with their other hand.

KNOW THE RULES OF OUR GAME:

1) Management and labor are not on the same team. We have different goals and are responsible to different groups of people.
2) Management wants you to do your job for less – even now at our current rock bottom prices if you let them.
3) Management will never willingly sit down and give you a raise. They only respond to fiscal and public pressure.
4) Playing nice guy results in longer and longer contracts. The end result of this is keeping it out of your pocket and in their as long as possible.
5) Management is adept at playing labor groups against one another.

Never forget that you are labor – not management. The next few years will get ugly as we try to get back what we lost. You need to take off the rose colored glasses. Unionism might be dying in other parts of the work force but it is very much alive in our industry.

Please read – Flying The Line.

 

[becket]

The "market forces" are of no advantage to ALPA because we are basically everybody's Bitch.

"jes lemmie flys the jet massa, ans I swears I wone rock no boats"

We are the lynchpin of this entire industry and we, (as directed by alpa), have done nothing to stop the bleeding. Why would anybody care what pilots think as long as they leave on time to orlando...for less money than it costs to get into disneyworld.

 

[727C47]

Go get some pom poms guys.

ALPA is run by airline pilots. They go hand and hand.

I can see all the Yes voters are in this thread.

I am proud of you paycut supporting boys.

Work for less the ALPA cheerleader dream.

Quit whining and get involved,till then you have no excuse fat boy driver.

 

[FlyByNight1]

Let me throw out a few questions as a pilot working for a company that is non-union, but talking heavily with ALPA at this time. I have never worked under a union, but a few things have always bothered me.
1. Why dont ALPA members stand up for ALPA members at other companies? For example - USAIR, when they proposed to do away with their pension. Why didnt ALPA tell Washington "If you allow this to happen to our boys at USAIR, not a single airplane will leave the ground tommorow at CAL, DAL, UAL, ect.... I think that might have made them blink.
2. If the union is such a brotherhood, why do the mainline carriers have such a bad relationship with their namesake regional carriers. "they're taking our flying" Shouldnt ALPA be the common thread in that equation.
*** Dont get me wrong, coming from a guy at a non union shop, we definately need some representation. I know that ALPA does a LOT of good protecting you against loosing your ticket and medical. And, I know they are largely responsible for this industry paying so well. But coming from a guy at a small carrier, who is going to be paying dues our of my allready rediculous pay check. Am I to believe that one of my brothers at ALPA is going to walk off their wide body Boeing with a sign in their hand in protest for me. I doubt it.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Let me throw out a few questions as a pilot working for a company that is non-union, but talking heavily with ALPA at this time. I have never worked under a union, but a few things have always bothered me.
1. Why dont ALPA members stand up for ALPA members at other companies? For example - USAIR, when they proposed to do away with their pension. Why didnt ALPA tell Washington "If you allow this to happen to our boys at USAIR, not a single airplane will leave the ground tommorow at CAL, DAL, UAL, ect.... I think that might have made them blink.

This is one of ALPA's problems. ALPA is akin to tribal groups in Afghanistan than a central organization. This works fine during growth, when everyone is getting some... but during the past six years when we have been fighting for the scraps, it tends to get ugly, with each group fighting each other... Imagine a group of people fighting for food....

The other is expectation. Why do you think ALPA can tell washington no airplanes move if you take USAIRS pension? Where did you get that expectation?

The fact is ALPA is just one of everyone in WashDC trying to get things done. In addition, the way the laws are written they are spring loaded to management and the economy. Sorry but we don't live in a contry that favors the working man. Also, no one cares about Air Line Pilots in WashDC except Air Line Pilots. With that said, if no one cares about pilots then how does pilots hating pilots help ALPA?

2. If the union is such a brotherhood, why do the mainline carriers have such a bad relationship with their namesake regional carriers. "they're taking our flying" Shouldnt ALPA be the common thread in that equation.

Misinformed major airline pilots. Don't get me wrong they are no different from misinformed regional pilots. Fact is the major airline pilots agreed to let the regional pilots do that kind of flying...

*** Dont get me wrong, coming from a guy at a non union shop, we definately need some representation. I know that ALPA does a LOT of good protecting you against loosing your ticket and medical. And, I know they are largely responsible for this industry paying so well. But coming from a guy at a small carrier, who is going to be paying dues our of my allready rediculous pay check. Am I to believe that one of my brothers at ALPA is going to walk off their wide body Boeing with a sign in their hand in protest for me. I doubt it.

Again... this is what we need to fix. The question is.. do we man up and work to effect positive change or do we simply throw up our hands and say it is FUBAR and go cynical and apathetic...??

We are the lynchpin of this entire industry and we, (as directed by alpa), have done nothing to stop the bleeding.

Not true with UAL2000 and DAL2001.

Why would anybody care what pilots think as long as they leave on time to orlando...for less money than it costs to get into disneyworld.

No one cares about Air Line Pilots in WashDC except Air Line Pilots. With that said, if no one cares about pilots then how does pilots hating pilots help ALPA?

 

[CopilotDoug]

The other is expectation. Why do you think ALPA can tell washington no airplanes move if you take USAIRS pension? Where did you get that expectation?

As ToThePain pointed out, Playing nice guy results in longer and longer contracts. The end result of this is keeping it out of your pocket and in their as long as possible

ALPA is playing the roll of nice guy, i.e. playing the political game, as you'd call it. ALPA talks about drawing a line in the sand with management, and management proceeds to piss on it. Management plays by the rules when it's convenient for them, i.e. the UAL pilots getting the contract tossed in their face when they want to ammend it early. But if management wants a paycut before the contract is up, you bet your a$$ that paycut will pass.

 

[PCL_128]

As ToThePain pointed out, Playing nice guy results in longer and longer contracts. The end result of this is keeping it out of your pocket and in their as long as possible

ALPA is playing the roll of nice guy, i.e. playing the political game, as you'd call it. ALPA talks about drawing a line in the sand with management, and management proceeds to piss on it. Management plays by the rules when it's convenient for them, i.e. the UAL pilots getting the contract tossed in their face when they want to ammend it early. But if management wants a paycut before the contract is up, you bet your a$$ that paycut will pass.

Everything you talk about is the result of the laws being weighted in favor of anti-labor managements. The only way to change that is through ALPA-PAC and electing pro-pilot candidates. In other words, you have to play the political game that you deride. It's the only way to change things to a more even playing field.

 

[CopilotDoug]

The only way...

Says who?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

As ToThePain pointed out, Playing nice guy results in longer and longer contracts. The end result of this is keeping it out of your pocket and in their as long as possible

Not being the nice and being stupid are too different things... Pilots without responsibility and who only think of themsleves love to talk tough... pound their chest and use bravado... but yet none of them have a real pragmatic, workable plan.... they make broad brush announcements that ALPA should just __________. And all would be fine...

ALPA is playing the roll of nice guy, i.e. playing the political game, as you'd call it.

I wouldn't say they are playing nice guy... they just aren't playing stupid.. For example ALPA is quite often invited to NTSB accident investigation. Key word invited. Now if you were invited and proceeded to piss in everyones wheeties do you think you'd get invited again?

ALPA talks about drawing a line in the sand with management, and management proceeds to piss on it.

Do you have a reference? By line in the sand I take it you mean an ultimatum.

Management plays by the rules when it's convenient for them, i.e. the UAL pilots getting the contract tossed in their face when they want to ammend it early. But if management wants a paycut before the contract is up, you bet your a$$ that paycut will pass.

And that is ALPA's fault? care to discuss the RLA?


Recently I spoke with an ALPA volunteer and we were discussing the pension issue. He stated that it was just not a matter of ALPA saying..ok fine take our pensions... he stated that once he sat down and got educated on the issue its far more complex with so many gov't and industry organizations involved....

The fact is, and I don't blame them, pilots want to show up to work, fly thier trips and go home. But the reality is.... if we do that, then we are letting others control our careers and future...

It doesn't matter how we look at it... if we are to have more control over our carrers we have to become more informated and involved...

Pissing on ALPA is like rioting your own neighborhood. Sure it feels good but where you going to sleep?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Says who?

CPG-

Are you serious? If it is not the only way... then tell us... what are the other ways?

 

[PCL_128]

Says who?

Umm, ok. Please explain another way to fix the anti-labor laws in this country without getting involved in the political process. Laws are changed through politics. Trying to change your circumstances while ignoring the very laws that put you in those circumstances will result in you doing nothing but beating your head against the wall. It may feel good to talk about illegal sick-outs and such, but no real results will ever come from it. Real results are achieved on Capital Hill.

 

[stlflyguy]

I did organizing work on several campaigns to bring ALPA to non-union companies.



The typical lazy pilot response. "I paid dues, I don't need to do anything else." That is why the profession is in such a shambles. If you want things to get better, then the line pilots are going to have to get involved and informed.

Hmmm....there might be some TWA pilots that wish to depose you....ever work on the AA recruitment?

stlflyguy

 

[PCL_128]

Hmmm....there might be some TWA pilots that wish to depose you....ever work on the AA recruitment?

Nope, sorry. The whole TWA/AMR merger took place before I started doing that sort of work.

 

[CopilotDoug]

CPG-

Are you serious? If it is not the only way... then tell us... what are the other ways?

I know you'll pi$$ and Moan about a strike, or a sickout. Why would anyone expect pilots to have backbones? But I digress.

Job Action, my friend. Don't do one thing outside the ops manual. Have you ever really been aquainted with the wheel well during a walk around? Why not take another 15 minutes to make sure it's just grease up in there, and not another fluid. Do you think you missed something on the checklist? Better do it again. Feel a little fatigued? Better play it safe and call in. And it's all in the name of safety, which is most likely in your company's mission statement.

The bottom line: The pilots need to be taken seriously and the only way to get the company's attention is by hitting them in the bottom line

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I know you'll pi$$ and Moan about a strike, or a sickout. Why would anyone expect pilots to have backbones? But I digress.

As long as a strike, a sickout is unworkable then it takes away from our effectiveness. PATCO/APA. If you can present a workable method....let's do it. What have you got?

Job Action, my friend. Don't do one thing outside the ops manual. Have you ever really been aquainted with the wheel well during a walk around? Why not take another 15 minutes to make sure it's just grease up in there, and not another fluid. Do you think you missed something on the checklist? Better do it again. Feel a little fatigued? Better play it safe and call in. And it's all in the name of safety, which is most likely in your company's mission statement.

It only works if you have a very unified pilot group. Company wide? Nationwide?

The bottom line: The pilots need to be taken seriously and the only way to get the company's attention is by hitting them in the bottom line

No.... the problem is guys want to show up, fly thier trips and go home. They want a mx free career. I don't blame them. But it is not reality. and when pilots realize there is a problem... they want one stop shopping/express lane checkout solutions to solve thier problems...

Sorry.

The way to manage your career is slow methodical organized methods....

This is politics...not mechanics...

 

[CopilotDoug]

It only works if you have a very unified pilot group. Company wide? Nationwide?

Maybe ALPA can form a Red, White, and Blue committee to analyze the pros and cons and the effects on the environment

 

[PCL_128]

I know you'll pi$$ and Moan about a strike, or a sickout. Why would anyone expect pilots to have backbones? But I digress.

Job Action, my friend. Don't do one thing outside the ops manual. Have you ever really been aquainted with the wheel well during a walk around? Why not take another 15 minutes to make sure it's just grease up in there, and not another fluid. Do you think you missed something on the checklist? Better do it again. Feel a little fatigued? Better play it safe and call in. And it's all in the name of safety, which is most likely in your company's mission statement.

Do a little research on the CMR write-up campaign from before their strike. Their pilots wrote up broken airplanes, but the company was able to convince the judge that they were writing up a lot more planes than they usually do, so the judge issued an injunction against the Association. It didn't matter to him that the airplanes really did have mx issues, he was only concerned that they were issues that the pilots usually didn't write up. The only thing the company has to prove is that the pilot group is engaged in a coordinated action to change the status quo. It doesn't matter if it complies with the book or the mission statement. Again, this is why the laws need to be changed in our favor. The only way to do that is through politics.

The bottom line: The pilots need to be taken seriously and the only way to get the company's attention is by hitting them in the bottom line

You're bringing a foam bat to a gun fight. You simply can't win by doing the things you're talking about. Most of the pilots won't join in, the ones that do will be enjoined by a judge, etc... Time to wake up, people. The only way to advance this profession is through the political process.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Maybe ALPA can form a Red, White, and Blue committee to analyze the pros and cons and the effects on the environment

What should you be doing? Or should an ALPA member simply pay dues and expect others to provide all positive results.

IOW does the member have responsibility?

 

[CopilotDoug]

The only way to advance this profession is through the political process.

Great...so what kind of a timeline has been set for results to take place? 2 or 3 generations from now? ALPA is the foam bat at a gunfight.