Alright!!

[svcta]

Thanks for the new board, guys!

This should be in the spirit of the new board:

So we're working on a deal on a T-28 right now. The only down side is that we'll probably get rid of the T-6, maybe not right away(I hope, I can at least afford to taxi that one around!). Does anyone have any good advice for 3 newcomers to the T-28 world?

Thanks!

 

[Buckeye]

What year? A, B, or C? and where are you located? Where are going to get your LOA/Type from? A buddy of mine owns a B & C model, he loves it...just burns lots of gas. It is a blast to fly with him.

 

[pilotyip]

Great airplane, they let pilots who did not know how to fly solo in them at 9 hrs.

 

[svcta]

A "B" or "C" model would suit us. We're not interested in the "A" very much. Other than the arresting gear and some other structural mods are there any practical differences between the "B" and "C" that I'm unaware of? Personally, I wouldn't mind losing the extra hydraulics involved with the arresting hook, but it is pretty cool.

Here's something: The first two that we really got to climb around on(both C models) had wrinkles in the fuse. skin right in front of the wing root. Small area maybe 5 or 6 inches across. The word from the others in my group is that none of the ones they saw at Oshkosh had these. Anyone know about this?

 

[pilotyip]

Stuff

The B was faster at cruise power, because the prop on the C model had to be shortened in order to land on a carrier. C's had a problem back in 1967 when I was going through carrier quals at VT-5. After so many carrier traps the outer wing panels were flexing forward and binding the ailerons on the flaps, they lost couple pilots and planes to this problem. I think they grounded the entire T-28 C fleet for about 10 days in August of 1967 to inspect for this damage.

 

[Hung Start]

I own a B model, ask away!
By the way, they are built like a brick sh*thouse, a wrinkle here or there shouldn't scare you. But, get a good prebuy anyway.
And, make sure you have a pre-oiler.

Hung

 

[wmudriver]

Awesome thread.

Whats the story on insurance? Is it cheaper than owning say a T-6, because of the lack of tail-wheel? Spare parts easy to come by? Lets hear it!

I'm hoping to be a T-28 owner down the road sometime.

 

[rjcap]

T-28

About 10 years ago there was an outfit out of California that held a 2-3 day class on ownership of the 28. It was run by a retired Delta guy and another guy who sold the Darden pre-oiler kits and other accessories. Look into some of the aircraft magazines and you will probably see and add for it.

Also, not to long ago there was a 28 that had a catastrophic tail failure on a low fly by. Killed both pilots. You may want to do a search on that. There was something about structural fatigue on the tail structure. I don't remember the details. It should be on your pre buy inspection.

 

[svcta]

Awesome thread.

Whats the story on insurance? Is it cheaper than owning say a T-6, because of the lack of tail-wheel? Spare parts easy to come by? Lets hear it!

I'm hoping to be a T-28 owner down the road sometime.

Form what I've seen there is a great deal of support within the community. Finding parts, troubleshooting, etc. NATA(North American Trainers Ass'n) has been very helpful with the T-6, and I get the impression it centers more around the T-28s.

Insurance I don't know about yet, someone else can answer that. Up to this point my little group has been slowly stepping up our level of involvement with the warbirds and I haven't seen a real spike insurance yet. When I got in we were playing with Staggerwings, PT-19s and Stearmans. Then L-19, T-6. All conventional gear stuff that the insurance man only seemed to want to see a certain level of tailwheel experience to be made happy. The rates went up as the hull value increased, but not that much, and the T-28 has about the same value as our T-6, so I'm not expecting to see much jump. If anything the addition of the training wheel(nose gear) to the situation might sort of even everything out. I could, of course, be totally wrong. It happened once back in 1994, so I'm overdue.

 

[Hung Start]

Darton used to do a course in the T-28, I believe he sold the whole thing to Mark Clark at Courtesy.
Insurance, you need to talk to Angie at Cannon Insurance. My $150,000 hull cost me $3600 per year, the guy I WAS with (for 20 years!) jacked it up to $7K for no reason.
Parts are still ok to find, either Courtesy or T-28 Sales seem to have the know-how. The only thing that is getting VERY tough is a canopy.
There is a reinforcement mod for the tail, I have never heard of anybody getting hurt by a failure, at least not in the 5 years I have own mine.
NATA is a great resource, and there are at least one Yahoo group dedicated to the plane.
It really is the only thing I let my ego go crazy with, you certainly will get noticed and heard when you come and go. If you are serious, keep an eye on what the limitations are that go with the airframe. Just about all are experimental, and some have absolutely silly limitations, like no aerobatics, 200 mile limit, no pax, etc. It is just as important as a good prebuy.
Flys like a very big 172. On steroids. Better-than-Barry Bonds steroids.

Hung

 

[svcta]

hung,
what can you tell me about the prop AD?

 

[CherryBomb]

T-28's are cool, that is all...

 

[Hung Start]

The prop AD was caused by corrosion in the hub, caused by having a lot of birds just sitting around outside. It pretty much is a non existant problem now, but I doubt the AD will go away. Based purely on calendar time, not hours. If you have not had the AD complied with (about $1600) in more than 5 years, you are required to get it done on a 3 year schedule. On the second look see, if no corrosion is found, you can extend that to 5 years. I would imaging most are on the 5 year schedule by now. Caution Here!! When you comply with the AD, DO NOT LET THEM GRIND THE BLADES! Most good prop shops know this, but some just grind the paint off like they do on regular props. Blades are getting very hard to find, so if yours get ground and get below mins, you will end up with a set of cut down Tracker blades. Not prefered.
Lots of good shops that handle Ham Standard props around, I use Miami Propeller here at Opa Locka.
On a lighter note, if you bend down to service the nose wheel, and stand up quick, you will realise this is no prop off a 150! It hurts!!!!

Hung

 

[svcta]

So if an airplane has been hangared most of its 'adult' life, and the AD has been complied with in the past, you would anticipate that there would be no troubles? What is the cost if it fails?

Thanks a million!

 

[svcta]

Another question regarding training. I'll be the first of our group to get the type if our deal goes through. How are most of those programs set up? How much time does it take(flying hours)? Is it like every other type ride? And I want to be sure that since I'm a CFI and would be type rated, I can indeed give dual toward the type rating for the rest of my group.
Thanks.

 

[wmudriver]

Just about all are experimental, and some have absolutely silly limitations, like no aerobatics, 200 mile limit, no pax, etc.
Hung

No pax even though there are 2 seats? ouch. Now is the airplane that has these limitations or is it how the owner registers the a/c that determines the limistations?

 

[svcta]

Just about anyone can be necessary in the back seat. Call them an extra pair of eyes for see and avoid.

Hung,
So the experimental type cert. is individual to the specific airframe? I understand the flight limitations are for exhibition and proficiency, but we should also look at the paperwork to make sure that there's not something prohibitive thrown in, too?

 

[Hung Start]

The limitations are written when the airworthiness certificate is issued. They are not standard, or at least they were not back a few years ago. Issued by individuals, at individual FSDO's so they were open to different interpretations.
Mine are pretty open, no milage restriction. So, I can travel pretty freely.
I can take passengers, as long as not for hire, it is considered training or familerization flights.
If you get a B or C model, you will need to get a type ride. Although, they don't call it a type ride, because since they are not standard certified aircraft, you can't be typed. They got rid of the LOA thing about 3 years ago. so, it shows up now on your plastic certificate. There are a number of guys authorized to give the training and the ride, you will not find a Fed to do it!
The big sellers, Mark Clark or Chuck Smith can hook you up with someone. It took me 4 hours, and that was mostly sightseeing. Sweet airplane to fly. Hardest part is engine management, radials are a breed apart. And, I don't think any two are alike! It is a 8800 lb. aircraft, as long as you keep the old Wright going, you can get out of most troubles. Figure on 2 1/2 hours from fuel pump to fuel pump, at low cruise I burn about 53 gph. Takeoffs are 120 per hour, so I take off and cruise.
You can't be bashful with your credit card, but if you look good a lot of FBO's will give you a reduced rate. (since you will be buying 120 gallons at a time)
Hung

 

[Hung Start]

Now, this is going to sound crazy, but I have been told it is true. What you DON'T want to do is loose your limitations or repaint your aircraft with a new N number. Because, the limitations are written to a specific number, and they did standardize them a few years ago, for the worse.
I have copied mine, and scanned them on a hard drive, so if I loose it, I can reproduce them.

Of course all crewmembers are required!

I actually have more time in the back seat than the front, whenever I give fam rides I take the back. Better view for the people, as I take a lot of space.
Electric control switch lets me take all the major electrics under the rear seat control, and off we go!

I just show them the circuit breakers and hydraulic handle, although on mine I have a backkup hydraulic pump that is switched from both cockpits.
Just writing about it makes me want to go to the airport, it is a sickness.

Hung

 

[svcta]

Hung, thanks for the great info. I'm familiar with the elimination of the LOA, but still a little curious about the ride itself. Both of us that will get the 'type' have other type ratings, so we're familiar with what's involved on standard type rides. What can we expect on this? Standard maneuvers, approaches, etc? Also, I was hoping that this wouldn't be a 10 hour affair as I've heard around, 5 was a more appropriate number in my mind. We're friends with Mark Clark, as in we've bought and sold a/c with him in the past, so I'm sure we'll find someone. We're in the southeast.

Now, I don't want to give checkrides. But since this is a little less than standard I want to be sure that I can, as a CFI, give dual and send somebody to one. Do you know this to be an accurate statement?

 

[Hung Start]

Mark Clark has somebody local who can give you the ride, indeed, that is where I got mine. I am pretty sure the instructor/examiner has a sylabus that has been approved by the FAA, although I did not see it during my time. It was very basic, one day event for me. But, that was years ago, your mileage may vary, as they say. The whole training event and ride was just getting used to the aircraft, a steep turn or two and a couple of stalls and slow flight. Nothing like FSI type ride at all. I think I did demonstrate an engine failure glide, no biggie at all.
As a CFI you can give instruction, but I think you will need a waiver from the EAA to do it unless the students are owners in the plane. Can't do commercial ops, remember? But the EAA has/had a program that allowed an exemption. Of course, you insurance carrier may have a bit of say for that.
You may have to put together a maintenance plan for that also, because we don't do 100 hours or annuals, you get a condition inspection instead. The difference is any A&P can sign it off, don't need an IA.
The other difference is you get a pink airworthiness certificate, as it will be certified in the experimental/exibit category. Most FAA guys seem to just check to see if you are ok to fly it, they really don't want to be bothered with a non-standard aircraft. When I go to shows, they ask for the paperwork, and then ask for a ride!
Overall, it has been a darn reliable aircraft. Any problems I have had were mostly related to add on things, like the Darton kits. I took the old radio boxes out, about 200 lbs of gear, and put in a Garmin gps and a King HSI. Dual radios and good to go!

Hung

 

[svcta]

good info. The dual I would give would be to an owner of the same aircraft. The deal is that since I'm a CFI they want me to get the rating first and then the thought is that I can do the training for free and we can just go right to the designee from there. But, if we can each do it in a day, then that might be the best route. Maybe the designee would give me the list of things he wants to see and I can train to that. Thoughts?

 

[svcta]

What are your thoughts about the small nosewheel on grass?

 

[Hung Start]

I don't see why that won't work. There is no "sign off" per se, just a letter sent to the FSDO saying you met the standard that has been set. So, once you're set, you could prep the second guy, I would think. Of course, there may be a minimum time requirement that the guy signing off may have to spend with an applicant, so it may be a mute point.
Having said that, I did my stuff before the new and improved process. I had a LOA that I traded for the plastic. So, the training regime may have changed in time.
Small wheel is a no-no on grass. There is not a lot of clearance between the prop and ground, and the small wheel would go into a hole really easy. I do have the small wheel on mine, looks a lot nicer than the large. I used to go in and out of a 2200 ft. paved runway without a problem, but 3,000 is a lot more comfortable. Maybe I'm just getting old.
To give you an idea how rugged they are, during hurricane Wilma, the hangar I was in fell onto my plane. I mean, the whole hangar was sitting onto my bird. A crane had to pull the roof and stuff off. $105,000 damage, both canopies, wing and fuselage damage. Got the holes in the wings plugged, stiched the canopies together and flew about 50 miles to where I got the repairs. What other plane can do that?

Hung

 

[svcta]

I dig what you're saying about the small wheel. We operate off of a very well prepared grass runway, 3000' long. It's really the only grass that the airplane would see. Thanks for the insight on that. Is the larger wheel easy to swap?

 

[Hung Start]

Yes, all three wheels are identical.

You say you are in the South East, I'm in South Florida. Close?

Hung

 

[svcta]

I'm in Ga. Not too close, unfortuantely. I really appreciate all your insights.

 

[wmudriver]

I saw Mark Clark at Courtesy Aircraft was taking inquires into warbird partnerships. Have you guys ever heard of this being done for a warbird and would you recommend it? I've never done a airplane partnership before so i don't know if it is beneficial at all.

 

[Mud Eagle]

I saw Mark Clark at Courtesy Aircraft was taking inquires into warbird partnerships. Have you guys ever heard of this being done for a warbird and would you recommend it? I've never done a airplane partnership before so i don't know if it is beneficial at all.

I have heard a number of movers-and-shakers in the warbird cliques talking about fractionals and partnerships for about the last 3-4 years. In reality, it's the only way that most "mere mortals" can get into the game, given the way buying and operating costs have skyrocketed over that same timeframe. I would certainly be interested if the airframe, price, and location were right.

The big problem I heard discussed was insurance...as only a couple under-writers will even insure warbirds, they were both balking at the idea at the time.

In addition, since the community of people with the interest and financial means is so limited, it was tough to find a number of qualified owners who could all agree on the geographic basing of a specific airframe.

I know of at least one L-39 fractional, and I am sure there are numerous partnerships out there. It certainly can work and given how successful it has been in the last 5-10 years with the GA crowd, I forsee that this will eventually become the norm rather than the exception.

 

[Frozen Ronin]

T-28? Pretty cool, complex and fun~ When I was pulling them apart for reskinning, I found a lot of hidden corrosion. Some of the major fittings were even candidates for x-ray testing. Find out if it was a wreck, laying in swampy ground for 15 years before finding a set of wings bolted on and 'refurbished'. Sounds funny, doesn't it? Too bad it's not a joke! Know what you're getting into. If you don't approach this like a second career, learning everything you can, digging up every lead you find, you may end up another number on a stat sheet with NTSB letterhead at the top.

Beyond that, the world of warbirds will lead you into a society of some very awesome people.

Good luck!

Ronin