CFI Initial at FSDO?

[mocaman]

I am getting ready to take my CFI practical test and have a question. Can I use any FSDO or are they pretty strict on an applicant using the FSDO nearest to where CFI training was received? Thanks!

 

[Super 27]

They generally want you to take it at your "home" FSDO. I had to do mine at the DuPage FSDO (notorious for there low pass rate on CFI rides, and any other ride for that matter). I tried to go to Milwaukee, and initially they said yes, but later said that unless your local FSDO can't accomodate you then you must go there.

 

[pgcfii2002]

I think if the local FSDO cannot do the ride in the next 30 days they will assign you to a DPE.

Expect to pink the first time either way.

 

[LewisU_Pilot]

They generally want you to take it at your "home" FSDO. I had to do mine at the DuPage FSDO (notorious for there low pass rate on CFI rides, and any other ride for that matter). I tried to go to Milwaukee, and initially they said yes, but later said that unless your local FSDO can't accomodate you then you must go there.

DPA FSDO as well. Hardest thing I have ever done. Was able to pass on the first attempt tho. I've heard of others going to different FSDO's and they look down on that and will probably be a little bit harder on you. Id say just go to your nearest one and get it over with instead of trying to find an easy way out.

 

[KingAir1985]

BTR FSDO baby! Try and get as much gouge as you can. That helps the most.

 

[LR60BOY]

I think if the local FSDO cannot do the ride in the next 30 days they will assign you to a DPE.

Expect to pink the first time either way.

Nothing like encouragement!

 

[mocaman]

Thats what I thought...My instructor is also a DPE and he will kick my arse if I fail.

 

[nosehair]

Your instructor is a DPE?

Usually I never respond to those questions from CFI candidates about where to take the practical. Local checkride procedures vary from place to place, and no one on this board can really tell you.

How to go about taking checkrides should be an intregal part of the training you get in preparation of becoming a CFI. But I also know that bit is consistantly ignored in school training because it isn't a part of the PTS and most 'schools' don't go beyound PTS minimums....

...however...since your instructor is a DPE,...maybe you should address this question to him, and more importantly, discuss the instructional reasoning behind keeping this information secret from you.

 

[JAFI]

No two Examiners or Inspectors give a certificate exam the same way. Finding out what an Inspector/Examiner wants to see (IMHO) is part of preparing an applicant for an exam. To not do so asks for a higher failure rate and poor Instructor performance. I would pick a flight school and a specific instructor based on their high pass rate and not blame any one else for a high failure rate. But there is always at least two sides to every story. I have run into ball busting Examiners and Inspectors. In my experience they are few in number. Very, Very, Very few instructors call up to discuss what exactly I would like to see during an exam. Don’t bother calling a day before sending an applicant to an exam, it is already too late. You need to get the information before you start teaching for an exam.

But don’t just think this only works for check rides. I have heard people in my area complain about a specific Building Inspector who always gives general contractors a hard time during the building of a house. One of the Inspectors I work with was building a house and wanted to avoid delays and hassle so he called each building Inspector (electrical, plumbing, etc.) and asked them what they wanted to see. My co-workerc took notes, made sure the jobs were done to this quality and his entire house passed with out delay. WHAT a concept…………….

If I were an applicant I would want to find as many “just passed the exam” Instructors and ask what to expect. (Your Instructor should be doing that.)

In my experience many flight schools send an applicant to a ride just because they have completed the course hours. Not because, in the opinion of the Instructor, they are ready to take the exam or are ready to be a private/commercial/CFI pilot. Just like many students are pressing to get the ticket at the cheapest cost. For the most part – you get what you pay for……

If I were going for an exam and expecting a pink slip, I would ask - why are you going for the exam?? If your reply is the FSDO requires a high failure rate… well, here is a link for FAA Customer Feedback you may find interesting…….I would first find out if other schools have a better pass rate than yours and find out why….. Never go into a fight with out enough ammunition (documentation) and the correct size (information)….

But this is JMHO.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/afs/qms/


JAFI

 

[MauleSkinner]

No two Examiners or Inspectors give a certificate exam the same way. Finding out what an Inspector/Examiner wants to see (IMHO) is part of preparing an applicant for an exam. To not do so asks for a higher failure rate and poor Instructor performance. I would pick a flight school and a specific instructor based on their high pass rate and not blame any one else for a high failure rate. But there is always at least two sides to every story. I have run into ball busting Examiners and Inspectors. In my experience they are few in number. Very, Very, Very few instructors call up to discuss what exactly I would like to see during an exam. Don’t bother calling a day before sending an applicant to an exam, it is already too late. You need to get the information before you start teaching for an exam.

....

In my experience many flight schools send an applicant to a ride just because they have completed the course hours. Not because, in the opinion of the Instructor, they are ready to take the exam or are ready to be a private/commercial/CFI pilot. Just like many students are pressing to get the ticket at the cheapest cost. For the most part – you get what you pay for……

JAFI

These two paragraphs are a little at odds in my mind...seems to me that a well-prepared applicant wouldn't need to know what a specific examiner wants to see in order to pass a checkride.

Unfortunately, based on glimpses I get of the flight training industry (right up through FSI/Simuflite/Simcom type training, to be perfectly honest), lack of preparedness seems to be the norm. I used to fly a guy in his King Air who had recently passed his CFI initial and was signed off for his MEI, so we decided to discuss some multi-engine training concepts during a flight. I brought up Vmc, and he discovered that he was, in fact, VERY unprepared, at least with respect to that topic.

That discussion also confirmed my impressions that certificates, ratings, and endorsements are largely taught in an aircraft-specific manner...they get the instrument rating in an Archer, and have no idea how to choose the proper speed and flap setting to do an approach in a 172. Their complex endorsement was issued based on training in a Seminole, so they have no idea that there are propellers that are driven to high pitch by oil pressure rather than to low pitch. Personally, I'm type-rated in airplanes that I wouldn't fly without some fairly extensive instruction in differences between the versions that I fly and the ones I don't. (but that's a whole other discussion )

In the case of my King Air client, our Vmc discussion included the fact that his King Air, with a particular propeller mod, based its Vmc on the inoperative engine's prop being feathered rather than windmilling. He read the supplement, but I had to specifically state that to him, simply because he was taught that "the conditions related to Vmc include the failed engine windmilling...."

There...ya got my 2 cents' worth, for the bargain-basement price of 3 cents' worth of electricity

Fly safe!

David

 

[JAFI]

These two paragraphs are a little at odds in my mind...seems to me that a well-prepared applicant wouldn't need to know what a specific examiner wants to see in order to pass a checkride.

David

Yes and no.

How well prepared is prepared? I have noticed that some applicants do not demonstrate command ability. Sometimes I'm not sure who is in charge of the aircraft. After listening to an Instructor (or for an upgrade from right seat to left) or the Captain for so long (who usually makes all the decisions) who do not allow the applicant to practice making decisions. When we fly together their command ability is lacking. When I have to become the PIC because no one else is, the check ride is over. As a practice the Examiner/Inspector can only wait as long as it is safe to see who is PIC before you take over. Let your students practice making decisions.

A young Instructor may need to be told to emphasize this to better prepare their student.

Also some safety practices that sometimes are not emphasized enough IMHO, looking right and left prior to entering an active runway, clearing turns for maneuvers, watching outside the traffic pattern for incoming traffic, using the radio for position reports and looking for other reporting traffic.

Understanding weight and balance better. I ask what happens to the CG in flight when you throw your flight bag from the front seat to the aft cargo compartment and the applicant does not understand the basics of weight and balance. It just seems that some applicants are given the minimum to pass and are not really prepared for using the certificate they are testing for.

Information on what is working and what is not should be passed from the Examiner/Inspector to the Instructor so they may better prepare their students for the exam and to safely operate the equipment.

If nothing else, Call it quality control and feedback.......

JAFI

 

[MauleSkinner]

...Information on what is working and what is not should be passed from the Examiner/Inspector to the Instructor so they may better prepare their students for the exam and to safely operate the equipment.

If nothing else, Call it quality control and feedback.......

JAFI

I wholeheartedly agree with that...kind of like using "all available information" for preflight activities. It's information that's available, so it should be used, and will result in a more well-prepared applicant.

On the other hand...

It just seems that some applicants are given the minimum to pass and are not really prepared for using the certificate they are testing for.

Minimum preparation is minimum preparation, IMO, whether it encompasses only the things they know are going to be dealt with on a checkride (examiner feedback), or only the things the instructor feels are important. Or, in the case of some of the programs I participate in, the topic is adequately covered when the clock on the wall says it's time to move on to the next subject.

Granted, I'm not an examiner, and am not active in "certificate and rating" training. And, as someone pointed out within 2 minutes of meeting me last week, I tend to be a "black-and-white" person. My views are known to be a little different.

In my experience many flight schools send an applicant to a ride just because they have completed the course hours. Not because, in the opinion of the Instructor, they are ready to take the exam or are ready to be a private/commercial/CFI pilot.

I think this is the real problem...and unfortunately I also think it boils down to the breadth of experience that the CFI or CFI applicant has...and not just hours in the logbook. Things like, has the longest cross-country flight they've made been the result of a Part 61 "experience" regulation, or have they gone on a really cool flying adventure or two? Have the only "full procedure" approaches they've done been due to training/testing requirements, with the rest being vectors to final, or are they prepared when, 50 miles from North Platte, NE, the Center controller says "Cleared for an approach to the North Platte airport..."? When they recommend a "safety factor" for takeoff and landing performance, do they also know how to determine whether this is adequate for the way YOU fly the airplane?

Basically, are they teaching from their experience or something that they've never seen or done? Granted, none of us have experienced everything, and I've done my share of "learning by teaching". Sometimes the situation arises, and you just have to do your best...I certainly wasn't going to give up my first glider flight to 14k in wave simply because I was giving instruction in something I hadn't done before. I just think it's more the rule than the exception, when it should be the other way around.

Fly safe!

David

 

[JediNein]

I spent two hours on the phone recently, briefing a CFI applicant about what he needed to do to prepare for his scheduled CFI Initial checkride at the local FSDO with a certain Inspector. I suggested he call the Inspector and ask the Inspector the same questions.

I asked him three airworthiness questions that he was unable to answer, and, worse, didn't know how to find the answer (91.213). I asked if the airplane he was using had a compass correction card, all placards installed and legible, and would it survive a casual airworthiness inspection. The silence on the other end was getting longer. I asked him to explain how the compass worked. "Oh man" was my response.

I then suggested either reschedule the checkride or use the set date as a initial CFI checkride briefing attended by himself and his instructor, to be arranged when he did contact the Inspector ASAP.

To his credit, he and his instructor did the briefing, and with much to study they have not re-scheduled the ride.

The briefing is worth its weight in gold. These two found out where the FAA is violating pilots due to inadequate instruction. They discovered where the accidents are occurring, again due to inadequate instruction. They found out the FSDO's hot button issues and directives from HQ. The applicant found out he wasn't ready, without a pink slip, and the instructor found out where he wasn't preparing the applicant properly. And, because the Inspector was wearing the white hat, they even discovered one problem with the airplane that required fixing -- before it caused an accident, without any violations.

Not bad for a few hours of time.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I spent two hours on the phone recently, briefing a CFI applicant about what he needed to do to prepare for his scheduled CFI Initial checkride at the local FSDO with a certain Inspector. I suggested he call the Inspector and ask the Inspector the same questions.

I asked him three airworthiness questions that he was unable to answer, and, worse, didn't know how to find the answer (91.213). I asked if the airplane he was using had a compass correction card, all placards installed and legible, and would it survive a casual airworthiness inspection. The silence on the other end was getting longer. I asked him to explain how the compass worked. "Oh man" was my response.

I then suggested either reschedule the checkride or use the set date as a initial CFI checkride briefing attended by himself and his instructor, to be arranged when he did contact the Inspector ASAP.

To his credit, he and his instructor did the briefing, and with much to study they have not re-scheduled the ride.

The briefing is worth its weight in gold. These two found out where the FAA is violating pilots due to inadequate instruction. They discovered where the accidents are occurring, again due to inadequate instruction. They found out the FSDO's hot button issues and directives from HQ. The applicant found out he wasn't ready, without a pink slip, and the instructor found out where he wasn't preparing the applicant properly. And, because the Inspector was wearing the white hat, they even discovered one problem with the airplane that required fixing -- before it caused an accident, without any violations.

Not bad for a few hours of time.

My question is, how did this particular applicant get through his private, commercial, and instrument checkrides WITHOUT this knowlege? (that's a rhetorical question, btw) This isn't CFI-specific, and is stuff that I definitely remember dealing with prior to my Private Pilot checkride. As is most of the non-FOI stuff on the Orlando FSDO's "Why CFI's fail" web site, to be quite honest.

I can see where a private pilot would forget things like this after a period of time, especially when they only sit down with an instructor once every two years for an hour of ground and an hour of flight, but someone on a "professional pilot" track who has taken at least two checkrides since then should have a reasonable grasp of these subjects.

Apparently the FAA's "We're the only ones who can do this properly" philosophy isn't working

Sorry for the rant.

Fly safe!

David

 

[JediNein]

This isn't CFI-specific

But my questions were. :smash:

 

[dogismycopilot]

The ORL FSDO also has a notoriously low CFI pass rate. However, they initiated a CFI Special Emphasis Program that addresses common weak areas of the CFIA and CFIH. They also emphasize many safety issues facing the local flight training community. The flight training accident rate in the FSDO has decreased by over 80% since 1998. Here's the link, and I am sure the information found here would be helpful for any initial CFI applicant. I passed the first time around because of the program.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/orl/local_more/cfi_program/