Wso/rio

[SSDD]

I've been watching the Dogfight series on the History channel. I specially like the Vietnam F4 episodes. When I was starting in aviation, a lot of Phantom drivers were retiring at Nellis, and I got to fly with some of them and heard the stories.

Of all the stories I've watched on the History channel, the only backseater that is mentioned is Willy Driscoll. Nothing about Ritchie's or Old's guys. Is that a Navy vs Air Force thing, or is it that Driscoll ended up at Miramar?

 

[AA717driver]

The Navy always viewed the RIO as a specialty position and, thus, the RIO was held in higher esteem.

When the AF first got the F-4's, the backseater was a pilot with a little extra training and was basically killing time until he got a front seat. I believe the backseater was called "the pilot" and the frontseater was "aircraft commander". The Navy paired the pilot and RIO as a crew. The AF initally did not. That's why on some of Ritchie's kills, Feinstein was the WSO but not on all of them.

Later in the war, the WSO job was created (they realised the aircraft and the mission demanded a specialist in the back seat) to handle the intense workload of combat. And, they began to pair the pilots and WSO's as permanent crews.

I still don't think the AF ever really gave the WSO's the same respect the Navy did. (Now, I believe that's changed.) TC

 

[ExAF]

DeBellevue

Chuck DeBellevue was the other WSO ace from Viet Nam. He was also the "top Mig Killer" with 6 kills (more than anyone else in the war). WSOs were usually #2 in the AF pecking order. It went 1. pilot 2. WSO 3. Navigator. Here's some more info on DeBellevue Mig Killer

 

[retired guy]

The Association of Aces, or whatever they are called, does not recognize a back seater as having "Ace" status. Only the "Aviator". BTW..Webster defines an aviator as " An airplane pilot". Those who would argue that a backseater, Wso, switch monkey or what ever you care to call them is an "aviator" where does it stop? Are the "twigets" that popuate the rear of a "compass call" or the crew members of a P3 aviators? How `bout the navs and loadmasters on a 130? A slippery slope. How `bout a professional flight engineer? If they are aviators, aren`t the flight attendants?

 

[ExAF]

OK, I'll buy that. But since DeBellevue went to UPT after his kills and is a pilot now, is he an ace or not? I don't really care one way or the other. Being an old Rhino driver, I know that in the Rhino it takes two to tango. Unless the kill was done with heater, gun or an auto acq lock or boresight shot, the WSO or pWSO was an integral part of it. Most likely the WSO was an integral part of it even if the affor-mentioned weapons/modes were used. I do agree that the fighter pilot mafia will never acknowledge a WSO as being the "Top ACE" of the war whether right or wrong.

 

[Huggyu2]

The Navy always viewed the RIO as a specialty position and, thus, the RIO was held in higher esteem.

When the AF first got the F-4's, the backseater was a pilot with a little extra training and was basically killing time until he got a front seat. I believe the backseater was called "the pilot" and the frontseater was "aircraft commander". The Navy paired the pilot and RIO as a crew. The AF initally did not. That's why on some of Ritchie's kills, Feinstein was the WSO but not on all of them.

Later in the war, the WSO job was created (they realised the aircraft and the mission demanded a specialist in the back seat) to handle the intense workload of combat. And, they began to pair the pilots and WSO's as permanent crews.

I still don't think the AF ever really gave the WSO's the same respect the Navy did. (Now, I believe that's changed.) TC

I don't believe Feinstein flew on any of Ritchie's kills. 4 were with DeBellevue, and one was with Pettit, if I remember correctly.

I thought the AF put pilots in the back of the F-105D, but did not know they did that in the F-4 in Vietnam.

 

[bssthound]

retired guy:

Those who would argue that a backseater, Wso, switch monkey or what ever you care to call them is an "aviator" where does it stop?

To make it even more convoluted, in every F-4 I flew, as a WSO, in the ANG I had a stick, throttle, and instruments; and I often flew the airplane. I've yet to see an airplane that allows the same liberties to the flight attendant.

 

[JungleJett]

The Association of Aces, or whatever they are called, does not recognize a back seater as having "Ace" status. Only the "Aviator". BTW..Webster defines an aviator as " An airplane pilot". Those who would argue that a backseater, Wso, switch monkey or what ever you care to call them is an "aviator" where does it stop? Are the "twigets" that popuate the rear of a "compass call" or the crew members of a P3 aviators? How `bout the navs and loadmasters on a 130? A slippery slope. How `bout a professional flight engineer? If they are aviators, aren`t the flight attendants?

Everyone knows that when something extraordinary happens on a crew served airplane, that it is the 'pilot" that is responsible. The rest of us, we are just there to help make the pilot look good. We certainly could not share the same accolades as him. While you enjoy your self promoting back slapping, the rest of us will be in the bar laughing at you while remaining comfortable with the fact that as a crew, we accomplished the mission.

How about a gunner on a bomber in WWII? Some had gotten 5+ kills yet remain anonymous.

 

[414Flyer]

I don't believe Feinstein flew on any of Ritchie's kills. 4 were with DeBellevue, and one was with Pettit, if I remember correctly.

I thought the AF put pilots in the back of the F-105D, but did not know they did that in the F-4 in Vietnam.

I would hope there was a pilot in the F-105D, since there is only 1 seat

When Lance Sijan was shot down, he was one of two 2 pilots on that F-4.

 

[Huggyu2]

Doh!! F-105F or G models, I meant! Good catch.
And good point about Sijan. "Into the Mouth of the Cat" is a great book, too.

 

[retired guy]

Everyone knows that when something extraordinary happens on a crew served airplane, that it is the 'pilot" that is responsible. The rest of us, we are just there to help make the pilot look good. We certainly could not share the same accolades as him. While you enjoy your self promoting back slapping, the rest of us will be in the bar laughing at you while remaining comfortable with the fact that as a crew, we accomplished the mission.

How about a gunner on a bomber in WWII? Some had gotten 5+ kills yet remain anonymous.

I believe that if you re-read my post, you will not find any self promoting back slapping on my part. I made a statement of fact and asked a philosophical question.I doubt that you will beat me to the bar either. If you do, it`s because you bummed a ride with someone else. I flew alone.

 

[JimNtexas]

Doh!! F-105F or G models, I meant! Good catch.
And good point about Sijan. "Into the Mouth of the Cat" is a great book, too.

Were not all the F-105G's Weasels? In Weasels the pilot is there to drive the EWO to work.

 

[Huggyu2]

Yeah, but (without researching it) I thought that pilots did some of those duties too, back then. Not sure.

 

[414Flyer]

One of my friends flew the Spark Vark (RIP), and he was an IP in at Mountain Home. In order to teach the new EWOs, the pilots that were also ewo instructors had to know the ewo course there, in order to teach/evaluate in the aircraft. I think he wrote much of the syllabus and tactics that were in use at Mountain Home until the retirement

 

[bagasticks]

Everyone knows that when something extraordinary happens on a crew served airplane, that it is the 'pilot" that is responsible. The rest of us, we are just there to help make the pilot look good. We certainly could not share the same accolades as him. While you enjoy your self promoting back slapping, the rest of us will be in the bar laughing at you while remaining comfortable with the fact that as a crew, we accomplished the mission.

How about a gunner on a bomber in WWII? Some had gotten 5+ kills yet remain anonymous.

Additionally, it's the pilot's ass in the sling when when something extraordinarily BAD happens . . . . .ie. pushing the wrong throttle up in an engine out C5. . .



Those loadmasters remain anonymous too. . .