Door close vs GNS movement? Well at first glance this looks like a large cut..but on my 3 legs yesterday..I would have lost 3 minutes due to the door..which was then made up ..and then some with overfly ...(sat on the ramp..waiting for late connecting bags.....6.5 hrs block credit... 8.5 duty..
YGBSM... you were able to get the aircraft pushed within 1 minute EVERY push? Were you in ATL?
Philpot and Surrapine have already admitted publicly on the phone call yesterday that this averages 3 minutes per push fleet-wide. Do the math based on their average, and you'll have to agree with THEM that this is concessionary for all of us. You may have gotten lucky yesterday. Most of us won't, and the BOD has admitted that.
Second, you have to apply all the current rules and add up pay vs all the proposed rules and add up the pay.
For example: under our CURRENT agreement, you would have gotten more with your overfly yesterday than you would under the T.A. Remember, we now get SCHEDULED passenger published flight times or better. AP admitted that giving up that and going to average times is a 2-3% pay cut as well.
If you didn't overblock on each and EVERY single leg by 2-3%, you would have made more with the current system. THAT is the point... that the new contract language is concessionary over the CURRENT system.
The 4.5 average ? not sure that would be bad if the trips were constructed with efficiency being the key driver...Current trip I'm on..is 6.5 day 1...4.2 day 2...6.6 day 3... 5.0.. day 4.....so my average is above the TA 4.5!!
My question..how often would this be an issue ? I mean AirTran wants to fly their jets and maximize our flying .. right? (dont answer that!) anywhoo..Probably not often is my guess? Just trying to look at what it really is and if the language is REALLLY changing our pay computation based on the type of trips we actually fly...
That's cool that your trip is above that. All mine were too last month, except one. The problem is if they went to a "cost-management" driver in constructing pairings instead of "pilot efficiency". My last carrier did this, and it destroyed quality of life and pay.
What happens if you get a double sit for 3+ hours and only fly 2 legs? Been there, done that, with THIS company. With a longer duty day, no better restrictions on sits, and a 4.5 hour average day, you could see those. For instance, there's a F/O pairing in open time - go ahead and check. It flies 2 legs, sit 16 hours, 1 leg, 17 hours, 1 leg 14 hours, 3 legs. Pays for 19 hours. It would pay 18 under the new rig.
Last month I would have been shorted out of 2 hours on one of the pairings I flew. So the answer is yes, the company currently constructs trips like this and yes, people flying them would get less pay for the same amount of work.
The point: unless we have language REQUIRING the company to build trips a certain way or we have language PREVENTING the company from scheduling sits (which requires them to build efficient -for us- trips), then the 4.5 hour "average" day could, indeed, bite some of us.
Sick time...I would like to call out partial trips..just like we used to... 5 hrs a month seems pretty standard with other carriers ?? isn't it? Dunno?.. Not a deal breaker to me...call me crazy..
I would, too. But in this new T.A. there is no REQUIREMENT for Crew Sked to put you back on your trip. In fact, it's worse. You call in sick and ask to be put back on the trip and they say, "I'm sorry, but that doesn't come back to ATL until late tomorrow evening and then it's just an overnight and 3 legs back in so we want to keep our reserve on it. However, if YOU want to, we can put YOU on reserve. No, we don't have anything else for you, but we MIGHT tomorrow."
Congratulations, you just became a reserve pilot to get some credit back. Didn't think you'd be back on reserve, did you? And oh, by the way, all the new reserve rules still apply. You'd be better off saying no and watching open time for last-minute pop-ups from other people calling in sick.
Capt pay not bad ..not great..but FO pay seems a bit low..Again not a deal breaker..
Thanks. I appreciate you willing to hold out to help us out.
Pay raises seemed to be about 8-10 bucks..?? I would enjoy a fair raise if signed ..The FO's need more..we have professional pilots now...lets keep em ....we don't want 300 hr wonders from Riddle...do we?..Pay the FO's !!!
That's why the F/O pay SHOULD be a deal-breaker. And so should CA pay. In many years for both seats, it's not even COLA for the initial bump and isn't COLA throughout the contract, meaning we take a Cost-Of-Living pay cut every year.
Did Alaska or Frontier get retro ??
No, they were both concessionary agreements. Other carriers who didn't negotiate concessionary deals DID. Here's one for you: CoEx pilots got more of a "retro pay" check than you will. A regional guy. Yeah, no sh*t.
Reserve..sucks..guys should have more control and visibility..should be treated with respect.. ie not called at 5 am and put in rest..pleeeeez ... Copy the best reserve program from a legacy and paste it in our TA !!! Have language to solidly protect those reserve pilots. give em fixed 13 days off !! or more !
A great start, that should be a deal-breaker as well.
Retirement..any gain is good..u can keep your options...after taxes and all the BS..its better to get the cash in my humble opinion...2.5 percent into my 401..whatever...anything additional is a gain ! not a deal breaker....but would always want more in retirement !!
Yeah, but you also lose the ability to have company insurance rates (as poor as they are) after your first year of retirement (doesn't protect you until you're elligible for medicare). Better hope that 2% compounds into enough to pay the difference in medical insurance.
Scope pissed me off...at first glance...but the commuter flying language is pretty limiting isn't it? Based on a pretty restrictive ASM percentage ? I would rather have Skyway guys on our list with rates applicable to equipment...but Joe and Bob make those calls..not the pilots...I need more insight as to how this flying is tied to our future growth.. It makes me real nervous to have a side carrier flying with an frickn A on the tail. With that said ..they have never scewed us with contract flying..it has always been used to grow our carrier and enter markets quickly or add capacity when we needed it...never have I seen them utilize subservice to 'whack' flying from NPA pilots.
You haven't seen the company do it because they lack the tools to do it UNDER OUR CURRENT AGREEMENT! 50-seaters are a money-loser for every airline that flies them if they're not feeding high-$$$ international or trans-con flights. That's one of the reasons I-Air went out of business and why our company doesn't use them anymore.
70-seaters and 90-seaters (configured for a business class) are money makers. That's why they want them.
Under the proposal, you could see up to 20 90-seaters (10% or our total fleet size with the MEH acquisition and our own growth) PLUS 20 70-seaters within 1-2 years. That's 40 airplanes. Think that's not a threat?
THEN, in the NEXT T/A, they push for more. We keep giving like that, and 10 years from now you'll see us like DAL. No growth and 40-50% of our fleet flown by Mesa or Freedom.
No, thanks.
Its easy to say no...but I think we should really look at this objectively...a lot of the bullet points change how we get paid..but I am not so sure that it is completely concessionary ?? The NPA needs to do a dam good job on the QA ...and have some real good comparisons on the pay structure..rigs...duty day..bla bla bla... peace..
You were right the first time. It's easy to say No.
This agreement only gives you an extra $10 bucks an hour (less for most F/O's) after all the concessions in Sections 4 and 5 are done. That's about $6,000 - $7,000 a year after-tax and goes down each year for loss of COLA raises that reflect our market reality.
Do you want to sell out the reserve pilots, new-hires (who would take a pay CUT down to $38 an hour right off the bat for the "Market Wage" section of the new T.A.), and take that risk with scope for that?
Seems like a small amount of money to gain for p*ssing off so many people.
And its a big one -- Thanks!
9 duty.. On this day I lose 25min for the lose of the 4 hr minimum and 6 minutes (on average) for the pay starting when the A/C moves.
