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PAC Mentality

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FDJ2

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 9, 2003
Posts
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http://www.alpa.org/Default.aspx?tabid=179


PAC Mentality

There is an old saying: “If you want a friend in Washington, get a dog.” Well, I do love dogs—in fact, I have four back in Illinois—but I don’t plan to bring one to Washington. I’m not particularly interested in making friends here in D.C.; what I want is allies in our fight to take back our profession.
We need allies in Congress if we are going to make fundamental changes to the laws and regulations that govern our working lives. I’m talking about overhauling the bankruptcy code that managements have used to inflict maximum pain on us. I’m talking about reworking flight-time/duty-time regulations that leave us overworked, overwhelmed, and overtired. And I’m talking about transforming the airport screening process that treats us like part of the security problem and not part of the solution.
Let’s talk about what it takes to get things done in Washington, D.C. It takes credibility, it takes communications skills, and most of all, it takes money.

If you are happy with the bankruptcy code, flight-time regulations, and airport screening, stop reading here and move on to the rest of the magazine. But if you agree that we should be working to address even one of these issues, keep reading. Now that I have your attention, let’s talk about what it takes to get things done in Washington. It takes credibility: ALPA has worked for 76 years to develop a reputation of candor, professionalism, and expertise—that includes our technical and legal expertise, both unmatched in the rest of labor. Check that block. It takes communications skills: ALPA has a sophisticated lobbying and media relations operation that, among other successes, almost single-handedly defeated the foreign control scheme that the administration wanted so badly last year. Check that block (although we already see that threat back on the table again—we stand ready!).
But most of all it takes money, and in politics that means the hard dollars that feed a political action committee (PAC), which in turn can support congressional candidates who will fight for our issues. Unfortunately, in contrast to our credibility and communications programs, ALPA-PAC is losing ground.
In calendar year 2006, 14 percent of U.S. ALPA members made a voluntary donation to ALPA-PAC. That’s down 1 percent from 2005, and down a sobering 16 percent from the PAC’s heyday in 1983, which was during the midst of our battle with Frank Lorenzo at Continental and other problems brought about by deregulation of the U.S. airline industry.
I know why the numbers are down: pilot salaries have been slashed; pensions were destroyed; work rules are brutal; the debate over Age 60 has heated up; and ALPA has had to use all its leverage just to play defense these past few years against an unfriendly Congress, a hostile White House, and an antiworker judiciary. I don’t blame any pilot who looked at the headlines and decided not to give any of his or her hard- earned money to ALPA-PAC.
But the truth is that if we are going to take back all that we have lost, we must do better—soon. The election cycle for 2008—when one third of the Senate, all of the House, and the presidency will be decided—has already begun. The razor-thin margins in Congress are all that stand between progress and pain for our profession. If we are going to continue to play a strong role on Capitol Hill, we are going to need to reinvigorate our PAC.
ALPA-PAC has two incredible strengths. First, it is a bipartisan PAC dedicated to building a pro-ALPA majority around a core set of issues that affect the airline piloting profession and trade unionism in the aviation industry. I was encouraged when I met with the leaders of the new Congress and their key committees that work on pilot issues. They asked your union for our position. Your union has access that others crave.
The second strength is our PAC’s incredible efficiency. Dollars given to ALPA-PAC go to candidates to help them get elected and reelected. On the list of union PACs that have raised funds over the last two years, we rank 25th. But in the rankings of union PACs’ actual donations to candidates, we come in 9th place. That means that we are using your voluntary PAC donations for exactly what you intend—helping to get pro-pilot politicians elected to Congress.
Fellow pilots, we’re at the decision point for ALPA-PAC. I am not setting any targets or telling you how much we need to raise to be effective. I am asking that you look at the issues before us, weigh their importance to your professional future, and consider making an investment in ALPA-PAC. We all have a dog in this fight.
 
the debate over Age 60 has heated up;

Then maybe prater can explain how the change to age 60 is suddenly getting fast tracked and will end up being buried in the DOT's appropriations bill. That kind of stuff doesn't happen without ALPA's assistance. In spite of the majority of the membership opposing a change in age 60.
 
Then maybe prater can explain how the change to age 60 is suddenly getting fast tracked and will end up being buried in the DOT's appropriations bill. That kind of stuff doesn't happen without ALPA's assistance. In spite of the majority of the membership opposing a change in age 60.


It's getting fast tracked because the ATA and other business interests have a better Washington lobby than do we.
 
It's getting fast tracked because the ATA and other business interests have a better Washington lobby than do we.

If that were the case, this would have changed with the last Congress. And you assume that the ATA/business interests are in favor of a change. Not too many companies have supported the change publicly - only Southwest and JetBlue.
 
I am afraid the age is going to change. ALPA may as well try to form policy from within because the age 65 plane is taking off.
 
I am afraid the age is going to change. ALPA may as well try to form policy from within because the age 65 plane is taking off.

That may very well be, but we haven't even finished recalling furloughees at several airlines from the last downturn. I would prefer to see most furloughees recalled before the music stops for another five years. And with the rapid decelleration in the economy, I am expecting to see new furloughs occur next year. It'd be a VERY bitter pill to swallow if guys are getting furloughed again at the same time they're allowing guys to fly over 60.
 
That may very well be, but we haven't even finished recalling furloughees at several airlines from the last downturn. I would prefer to see most furloughees recalled before the music stops for another five years. And with the rapid decelleration in the economy, I am expecting to see new furloughs occur next year. It'd be a VERY bitter pill to swallow if guys are getting furloughed again at the same time they're allowing guys to fly over 60.

So life is not fair...... got a magic wand?

Back the PAC.
 
So life is not fair...... got a magic wand?

Back the PAC.

If the PAC is 'fast tracking' the Age 60 change, it is not in my best interests to back the PAC.
United is not growing; the only hiring that will take place for quite some time is due to attrition. When that cycle ends, I don't know. But United is not going to create more pilot jobs by growing any time soon. With the music stopping (no attrition for 5 years), that leaves us bottom dwellers as furlough fodder during the next economic downturn (which is right around the corner).
 
If the PAC is 'fast tracking' the Age 60 change, it is not in my best interests to back the PAC.
United is not growing; the only hiring that will take place for quite some time is due to attrition. When that cycle ends, I don't know. But United is not going to create more pilot jobs by growing any time soon. With the music stopping (no attrition for 5 years), that leaves us bottom dwellers as furlough fodder during the next economic downturn (which is right around the corner).

The PAC isn't fast tracking Age 60. You need to find the real players in this. All you know is ALPA so you are putting all your energy into ALPA, meaning ALPA is to blame for the Age 60 issues not going your way....

In addition.. age 60 is nothing compared to Open Skies. And the PAC is fast tracking the defense of US Pilot careers.

While you are distracted with age 60.. open skies is the brick wall that makes everything else moot.....

Your Air Line Career SA needs improving...
 
open skies is the brick wall that makes everything else moot.....

The rest of the world is experiencing a pilot shortage and the wages for foreign carriers is higher than in the US. While you are concerned about some Chinese pilot replacing you for a couple of bowls of rice a day, the reality is that foreign pilots have more to fear from cheap US pilots flying all over their countries.
 
The PAC isn't fast tracking Age 60. You need to find the real players in this. All you know is ALPA so you are putting all your energy into ALPA, meaning ALPA is to blame for the Age 60 issues not going your way....

Then you need to tell me why Inouye no longer opposes a change to age 60. Inouye is a staunch supporter of ALPA.
 
The rest of the world is experiencing a pilot shortage and the wages for foreign carriers is higher than in the US. While you are concerned about some Chinese pilot replacing you for a couple of bowls of rice a day, the reality is that foreign pilots have more to fear from cheap US pilots flying all over their countries.

Yes today. Again you are thinking short term and right now.

What about in 5-10 years. Do you want the laws to favor foreign companies and foreign labor? Even if you are not a air line pilot, when you travel to want an all foreign crew with thick accents that are flown in to the US to do 4 to 5 day trips then flown back to thier home country???
 
Then you need to tell me why Inouye no longer opposes a change to age 60. Inouye is a staunch supporter of ALPA.

Without know too much about his position, I'd say in general terms that he is issue orientated. I don't think there is pure ALPA congressmen that does what ALPA says....
 
Yes today. Again you are thinking short term and right now.

What about in 5-10 years. Do you want the laws to favor foreign companies and foreign labor? Even if you are not a air line pilot, when you travel to want an all foreign crew with thick accents that are flown in to the US to do 4 to 5 day trips then flown back to thier home country???

Well, seeing as some of the LOWEST payscales in the world for pilots are found in the US, I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that it will be the same in 5-10 years. If anything, the race to the bottom is accelerating in the US.

The second assumption that you make is that the domestic US market is lucrative. I disagree; it is absolutely cutthroat with razor thin margins. There is far more money to be made flying within the EU, Middle East, and Asia/Pacific rim.

Rez, have you been outside of the US? Foreign crews with thick accents? You've been watching too many James Bond movies. I travel to Europe quite a bit and a lot of Continental Europeans (not Brits) speak very understandable English.

At this point, I can't say whether or not Open Skies is a good or bad thing. And neither can you. You sound very xenophobic.
 
Well, seeing as some of the LOWEST payscales in the world for pilots are found in the US, I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that it will be the same in 5-10 years. If anything, the race to the bottom is accelerating in the US.

There are plenty of pilots from third world countries willing to do it for less.

The second assumption that you make is that the domestic US market is lucrative. I disagree; it is absolutely cutthroat with razor thin margins. There is far more money to be made flying within the EU, Middle East, and Asia/Pacific rim.


No, I do not make that assumption. I am using the maritime industry as example of what has happened and could happen to us.

Rez, have you been outside of the US? Foreign crews with thick accents? You've been watching too many James Bond movies. I travel to Europe quite a bit and a lot of Continental Europeans (not Brits) speak very understandable English.

Again you refuse to think. The pilots of 5-10 years from now would be third world africans and phillipinos.

At this point, I can't say whether or not Open Skies is a good or bad thing. And neither can you. You sound very xenophobic.

Well... how about you do nothing and wait and see....

Me... I am going to do the best I can to empower US Air Line Pilots to ensure there is a career available to us....


My buddy was talking abuot a DAL guy in his jumpseat. The DAL pilot was excited about coming out of BK and how it was going to be how it was...

Andy.... this career will never be the same... it can still be good, but we are going to have to work at it...
 
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There are plenty of pilots from third world countries willing to do it for less.

Really? These third world pilots can make more money at home, but would leave their native lands with a lower cost of living just so that they can fly in the US?

Again you refuse to think. The pilots of 5-10 years from now would be third world africans and phillipinos.

... and Mexicans and Indians and those drunken Irish, etc. Do you have any idea how racist you sound?

If you are suggesting that these pilots will leave their native countries to work for higher wages, fine. However, they won't be coming to the US for higher wages. There are far too many other places in the world where those pilots could fly for much higher salaries than is available in the US.
And if you seriously think that US pilot wages will ever be top of the heap, you're in for a rude awakening. We have US pilots LEAVING the US for higher wages overseas, not the other way around. There hasn't been an inflow of foreign pilots to the US for quite a while.


this career will never be the same... it can still be good, but we are going to have to work at it...

Yep, let's shut down the borders. That'll solve the problem.

You are completely blind to the pilot wage problem. It is not the threat from foreign pilots; it is the home-grown here in the US pilot willing to work for a few bucks less than his fellow US pilot. There is an overabundance of these whores that virtually ensures that you don't need to worry about them foreigner pilots taking your job.
Just changing pilot retirement age from 60 to 65 creates a pilot surplus on the order of 15% or so (assuming that current pilot employment is equilibrium). The negative impact of the age change will virtually ensure that you won't need to worry about those evil foreign pilots.
 
Really? These third world pilots can make more money at home, but would leave their native lands with a lower cost of living just so that they can fly in the US?

Not sure if you realize the number of illegal immigrant workers who enter this country to make money....

Now if Airlines could do it legally to have them work our jets...



... and Mexicans and Indians and those drunken Irish, etc. Do you have any idea how racist you sound?

I don't think you are familiar at all with the past and present maritime industry. Is suggesting I am a racist a tactic on your part?

If you are suggesting that these pilots will leave their native countries to work for higher wages, fine. However, they won't be coming to the US for higher wages. There are far too many other places in the world where those pilots could fly for much higher salaries than is available in the US.

Aren't foreign doctors, engineers and scientist coming to the US to work?

And if you seriously think that US pilot wages will ever be top of the heap, you're in for a rude awakening. We have US pilots LEAVING the US for higher wages overseas, not the other way around. There hasn't been an inflow of foreign pilots to the US for quite a while.

again.. that is today. Andy you are not debating. You are simply re-argueing your initial points.


Yep, let's shut down the borders. That'll solve the problem.

I have no idea what you are talking about. It seems to me that you are still in the 1950's with respect to global markets.

You are completely blind to the pilot wage problem. It is not the threat from foreign pilots; it is the home-grown here in the US pilot willing to work for a few bucks less than his fellow US pilot. There is an overabundance of these whores that virtually ensures that you don't need to worry about them foreigner pilots taking your job.

Not sure if you get it. If there are pilots here willing to do it for less, then there are pilots globally that are willing to do it for even less. As I stated before there are plenty of foreign doctors, engineers and scientists coming tothe US to work. There is always someone cheaper. That is what management wants and will try and tap as a resource...

There are good reasons to keep US pilots from the US. We just need to educate the US Pilots and get them active in thier careers...

Just changing pilot retirement age from 60 to 65 creates a pilot surplus on the order of 15% or so (assuming that current pilot employment is equilibrium). The negative impact of the age change will virtually ensure that you won't need to worry about those evil foreign pilots.

There is nothing evil about it. Not sure why you have to get emotional about it.

Here are two sources of information. Read and watch and reply with your thoughts.

The first link describes the current state of the maritime industry. Is the author racist cause he says that most if not all saliors are third world citizens like Phillipenos? (sp). (Anarchy is an adj. not a political manfesto)

http://www.wesjones.com/anarchy.htm


The second link requires ALPA access. Scroll down to the first large picture and watch the symposium on globalization and liberalization. Also consider talk of SWA and Ryan Air to become transatlantic players.

http://cf.alpa.org/Internet/Meetings/BOD2006/SVindex.htm
 
Rez,

ALPA has shown itself to be ineffectual over the past 10 years... Salaries are on a downward spiral to the bottom, they couldn't hold the line on age 60...not even a bit. Work rules have gotten worse and scope is a mess, and the union leadership seems intent on "working longer and harder...not smarter"

Why would I WASTE my money to support ALPA or it's PAC, being that it is so ineffectual. Prater would have better results if he brought his 4 dogs to Washington, at least then ALPA wouldn't be the only one's rolling over in Washington. This union is a joke with no teeth.

I think that the better course of action is to take any cash you might consider donating to the PAC, put it in your 401k and let it grow baby. Once ALPA rolls over on B-funds going away because of age 65, you're going to need it. That's my plan.
 
ALPA has shown itself to be ineffectual over the past 10 years... Salaries are on a downward spiral to the bottom, they couldn't hold the line on age 60...not even a bit. Work rules have gotten worse and scope is a mess, and the union leadership seems intent on "working longer and harder...not smarter"

Do you want to look at the big picture? Globalization has moved many blue collar labor jobs over seas. Why would air line pilots, who are viewed as blue collar labor by industry and gov't, be any different? Read the article on the current state of the maritime industry and airline globalization (linked above)and repsond with your thoughts.

Why would I WASTE my money to support ALPA or it's PAC, being that it is so ineffectual. Prater would have better results if he brought his 4 dogs to Washington, at least then ALPA wouldn't be the only one's rolling over in Washington. This union is a joke with no teeth.

Again look at the steel industry and maritime industry. There are no ships registered to the US, no US Shipping companies and no US sailors. Some ships are registered to landlocked countries. What's up with that? This is a blue print for management. It is not union inefficiences rather the tsunami force of globalization. (and weak membership participation)

I think that the better course of action is to take any cash you might consider donating to the PAC, put it in your 401k and let it grow baby. Once ALPA rolls over on B-funds going away because of age 65, you're going to need it. That's my plan.

So, you think instead of giving $10/month to ALPA-PAC you are going to get a better return on your 401k?

If you don't give to ALPA-PAC (all is needed is a small contribution. It isn't about large sums rather it is about particaption numbers and rate. Right now it is 14% of all ALPA pilots. Pretty weak.) then you may have to start over with a new 401k at a new company. Doesn't sound too effective. With that in mind $10/month is really a drop in the bucket. Hardly an inconvience, but each drop floods the river.

There are avenues to use to protect our careers. We can take them if the membership is on board. Are you? In addition, there are congressmen that are in line with protecting air line pilot careers. Are you supporting them?
 
I agree that ALPA is ineffectual.

ALPA is really an anachronism. It was founded at a time when an ALPA could be effective; times have changed, but ALPA has not.

I spent 27 years supporting ALPA and now regret it. We should have let it die years ago and replaced it with something else.

In my view, one of ALPA's greatest weaknesses is explained in its name: an association of airline pilots. That concept worked under regulalation, but representing only the airline pilots is now its achilles heel.

What we need is a strong union which represents ALL pilots from day one when a pilot gets his/her commercial license. Each pilot needs to be entered onto a national seniority list based on the issue date on his licence.

As long as we have ALPA, APA, SWAPA, IBT, AFL-CIO, and every other imaginable group splitting and splintering us, there will be no long term improvement in our pay or working conditions. We are all sitting ducks for management to pit one group against another and when that doesn't work, to go out into the marketplace and hire low time neophytes to drag us all down.

Time for something new.

Beating up on ALPA may be fun, but it is beating a dead work-horse.
 
Not sure if you realize the number of illegal immigrant workers who enter this country to make money....

How is that germane to this debate? You wish to discuss unskilled illegal immigrants in the same category as pilots? Can you please construct a cogent argument?

Is suggesting I am a racist a tactic on your part?

You continue to make racist remarks when the subject involves international treaties as a method to justify your stance. It's not a 'tactic' on my part; I am merely pointing out the obvious.

Aren't foreign doctors, engineers and scientist coming to the US to work?

Are they still coming to the US in any measurable number? And I noticed that you left pilots out of that category. Why? Because there's not a huge influx of pilots? Because pilot wages in the US are well below what can be made in other countries?

again.. that is today. Andy you are not debating. You are simply re-argueing your initial points.

Because you are unable to comprehend the fact that there will not be a glut of foreign pilots racing to the US because wages will continue to decrease for the foreseeable future. You are concerned about an event (evil foreigners taking many of the US pilot jobs) that will likely NEVER occur.
I can see that you have not come to grips with the fact that the change to age 65 will ensure a massive pilot glut which will result in even lower wages in the US. The problem of foreign pilots coming here will be instantly solved.

Not sure if you get it. If there are pilots here willing to do it for less, then there are pilots globally that are willing to do it for even less. As I stated before there are plenty of foreign doctors, engineers and scientists coming tothe US to work. There is always someone cheaper. That is what management wants and will try and tap as a resource...

OK, then post some statistics showing foreign born pilots who are seeking jobs in the US. They're going to other countries in the world which pay much higher wages than in the US.
As for foreign doctors, engineers, and scientists, I suspect that you'll find that the immigration rate is far less today than in the past. Are you also suggesting that these immigrants are willing to work for less than the going wage? Again, that's not a problem in the US with pilots. It's been proven time and again that there are plenty of US pilots who are willing to work for less than the next guy. Foreign pilots can't compete with the depths that US pilots are willing to sink to.

There are good reasons to keep US pilots from the US. We just need to educate the US Pilots and get them active in thier careers...

There is a net outflow FROM the US of airline pilots. This trend WILL continue.

Not sure why you have to get emotional about it.

There was ZERO emotion in my statement. I was merely stating cold, hard economic facts.

The first link describes the current state of the maritime industry. Is the author racist cause he says that most if not all saliors are third world citizens like Phillipenos? (sp). (Anarchy is an adj. not a political manfesto)

http://www.wesjones.com/anarchy.htm

WOW! You owe me 30 minutes of my life. That article has nothing to do with the state of the airline industry. And the problems of the maritime industry are vastly different than the airline industry. Are you also going to compare the automobile industry with the airline industry? Mom and pop hardware stores battling Walmart? How many specious comparisons do you want to make?

It's Filipinos. And here's what the author ACTUALLY wrote: "Moreover, the ships are crewed by several hundred thousand nearly anonymous foreign sailors drawn on short contracts from a much larger pool. Many of them are Muslims, and almost all come from troubled parts of the world, where America is resented, corruption is rife, and authentic documentation can easily be bought." No mention of third world (although implied) and certainly no mention of most of the sailors being Filipino.


The second link requires ALPA access. Scroll down to the first large picture and watch the symposium on globalization and liberalization. Also consider talk of SWA and Ryan Air to become transatlantic players.

http://cf.alpa.org/Internet/Meetings/BOD2006/SVindex.htm

You owe me 30 minutes from the first article. The symposium was 2hrs 17min; based on the first article that you posted, I suspect this is only slightly more relevent.
So now SWA flying transatlantic is a bad thing? They're a US company with US pilots. How do you bring this back to foreign pilots stealing US jobs?
 
I agree that ALPA is ineffectual.

It really isn't. It is just the membership chooses to be so diconnected that it really doesn't know what is going on.. so they come up with opinions and theories based on limited or misinformation. In addition ALPA could be a little more informative...

ALPA is really an anachronism. It was founded at a time when an ALPA could be effective; times have changed, but ALPA has not.

No it really hasn't. but tell us... how have times changed and how has ALPA become ineffective.

I spent 27 years supporting ALPA and now regret it. We should have let it die years ago and replaced it with something else.

Like what. If you want to replace it and create "something else" then what is it?

In my view, one of ALPA's greatest weaknesses is explained in its name: an association of airline pilots. That concept worked under regulalation, but representing only the airline pilots is now its achilles heel.

We are still heavily regulated by the gov't. Besides the ATA and RAA are associations and they seem to be doing fine. In fact, Association is the name for CapHill player.

What we need is a strong union which represents ALL pilots from day one when a pilot gets his/her commercial license. Each pilot needs to be entered onto a national seniority list based on the issue date on his licence.

Here we go. We also need a US Gov't that represents ALL citizens. C'mon this is a democracy not a customized Walgreens commercial.

Besides if Natiaonal sen list is such a great idea then why is it not so? It reality no one has come up with a good way to implement one.. it is still a nonworkable idea. But I am open to a better mousetrap. What do you suggest?

As long as we have ALPA, APA, SWAPA, IBT, AFL-CIO, and every other imaginable group splitting and splintering us, there will be no long term improvement in our pay or working conditions. We are all sitting ducks for management to pit one group against another and when that doesn't work, to go out into the marketplace and hire low time neophytes to drag us all down.

Agreed! How about we get all those groups listed above under one name. We can call it whatever you want. THE PILOT UNION or TPU. I don't care.
The neophytes are not the problem. Focus.


Time for something new.

How about a majority of ALPA members particapting in thier union instead of not. that is something that has never been done before. That would be new.

Beating up on ALPA may be fun, but it is beating a dead work-horse.

Yup... beating up on the only organization that represents you is like degrading your lawyer right before your trial. I mean if you want the guy motivated to help you you got to support him/her.
 
How is that germane to this debate? You wish to discuss unskilled illegal immigrants in the same category as pilots? Can you please construct a cogent argument?

I don't think doctors, engineers and scientists are unskilled. Do you? yet they are coming over quite regulary and consistently.



You continue to make racist remarks when the subject involves international treaties as a method to justify your stance. It's not a 'tactic' on my part; I am merely pointing out the obvious.

I don't get what is racist about discussing factual information about the global workforce.


Are they still coming to the US in any measurable number? And I noticed that you left pilots out of that category. Why? Because there's not a huge influx of pilots? Because pilot wages in the US are well below what can be made in other countries?

Again, I am debating legislative efforts that will have an impact 5-10 years from now. You don't want to debate that..

Because you are unable to comprehend the fact that there will not be a glut of foreign pilots racing to the US because wages will continue to decrease for the foreseeable future. You are concerned about an event (evil foreigners taking many of the US pilot jobs) that will likely NEVER occur.
I can see that you have not come to grips with the fact that the change to age 65 will ensure a massive pilot glut which will result in even lower wages in the US. The problem of foreign pilots coming here will be instantly solved.

I don't agree or disagree with any of what you've said above and the reason is I am not even talking about that.

OK, then post some statistics showing foreign born pilots who are seeking jobs in the US. They're going to other countries in the world which pay much higher wages than in the US.

Andy, I am discussing changes in the law that will make it easier for companies to bring in foreign labor.

As for foreign doctors, engineers, and scientists, I suspect that you'll find that the immigration rate is far less today than in the past.

Whew... I was beggining to think you weren't even going to acknowledge thier exisitance. Do you have any statistics or references?

Are you also suggesting that these immigrants are willing to work for less than the going wage?

Ugh... yes. You don't think immigrants are willing to work for less?

Again, that's not a problem in the US with pilots.

It seems to me there more foreign pilots with "right to work' in the US that I am flying with. And that is fine. but it tells me more US pilots are choosing other careers. Change the foreign ownership laws and 'right to work' becomes moot.


It's been proven time and again that there are plenty of US pilots who are willing to work for less than the next guy. Foreign pilots can't compete with the depths that US pilots are willing to sink to.

We will see. Are you going to address why there are no US Sailors? I am not saying this will happen but that it could happen. I am simply informing.

There is a net outflow FROM the US of airline pilots. This trend WILL continue.

Yes. today. What about 5-10 years from now. Again. No US registered ships and no US sailors.

There was ZERO emotion in my statement. I was merely stating cold, hard economic facts.

Evil foreign pilots? Sounds racist even. :)

WOW! You owe me 30 minutes of my life. That article has nothing to do with the state of the airline industry. And the problems of the maritime industry are vastly different than the airline industry. Are you also going to compare the automobile industry with the airline industry? Mom and pop hardware stores battling Walmart? How many specious comparisons do you want to make?

hmm.. the people I talk to that are working the open skies agreements seem to see leesons to be learned from the maritime indutry. But if you are so convinced, tell us how the airline industry is immune from global market forces...........

It's Filipinos. And here's what the author ACTUALLY wrote: "Moreover, the ships are crewed by several hundred thousand nearly anonymous foreign sailors drawn on short contracts from a much larger pool. Many of them are Muslims, and almost all come from troubled parts of the world, where America is resented, corruption is rife, and authentic documentation can easily be bought." No mention of third world (although implied) and certainly no mention of most of the sailors being Filipino.

Thanks for the spelling lesson Teach. I did type (sp). I was confused by the common abv. of P.I.

So you don't think what you stated above means third world labor?

No mention of Filipinons? How about this Mr. Speed Reader...

In the fall of 1999 it was engaged in the tramp trade, picking up cargoes where it could, and working primarily between the Malay Archipelago and Japan. It was crewed by fifteen Filipinos working under the command of two Japanese officers -

Pirates were known to have posed as stranded mariners to lure innocent vessels into traps. The men in the life raft could see that the boat flew the flag of Thailand. One of them shouted in English that they were fifteen Filipinos and two Japanese, that they were victims of pirates, and that if they were not rescued they would die.

The Filipinos flew to the Philippines, where, for want of better jobs, most if not all eventually hired on to other ships. Captain Ikeno and his chief engineer flew home to Tokyo, and both retired from the sea.

The Indians could have sat back and done nothing. The Alondra Rainbow was a Panamanian ship owned by Japanese, crewed by Filipinos, and attacked off the shores of Indonesia by pirates of uncertain nationalities.

You owe me 30 minutes from the first article. The symposium was 2hrs 17min; based on the first article that you posted, I suspect this is only slightly more relevent.

No it is significantly relevant.. the fact that you don't have the time to learn says allot.

So now SWA flying transatlantic is a bad thing? They're a US company with US pilots. How do you bring this back to foreign pilots stealing US jobs?

Of course it is not a bad thing, but it is indicative of where this industry is going. Briefly I bring it back to the ultra competitiveness of the global airline industry. When SWA starts flying to Europe the competition will be there. Eastern Europe and Africa are right there will millions of trainable pilots who live of much less per day then we do..... are you starting to get it?

Many western European airlines want to move thier operations to East Europe where the labor is cheaper and the laws are weaker. Heck, some airline CEO's want to set up dispatch in India. Talk about out sourceing....

Sure you can go get a job at a foreign carrier but you will be paid the same as an African or Eastern European. How bout that income?
 

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