16 hour

[SneakyJake]

Searched, couldn't find it. Does anyone know of the legal ramifications of going over a 16 hour duty day while you are following the ALPA guidelines? Can you be violated? I hear rumors of people diverting midleg, don't know the details.

Q-21. How should I calculate my ETA to ensure I do not go beyond 16 hours?
A-21. The following examples detail the required calculation:
Step 1. Determine the time you signed in for flight duty or
became available for a reserve assignment.
Step 2. Add 16 hours to that time to determine the maximum
duty day.
[Note: if your duty period exceeds 15 hours, your FAR
“look-back” rest is 8 hours – you must have compensatory
rest at destination.]
Step 3. Before you depart the gate on each flight segment,
you must calculate whether you will arrive and be released at
the destination airport so that you can “look back” 24 hours
from the release time and find at least 8 hours of rest. In
determining your arrival time, you must consider actual
conditions, such as weather, ATC, ground holds, or any other
known delays. If you estimate you cannot reach the
destination and at release meet the look-back provision, you
should not depart the gate, even if you were legally
scheduled.
Step 4. If you estimate at the gate that you will arrive at the
destination and be released in time to comply with the lookback
requirement, but you have an unexpected ground delay
prior to take off so that you will not arrive in time to comply
with the look-back requirement, you cannot take off and must
return to the gate.​

 

[densoo]

Searched, couldn't find it. Does anyone know of the legal ramifications of going over a 16 hour duty day while you are following the ALPA guidelines? Can you be violated? I hear rumors of people diverting midleg, don't know the details.

Had this just last night. The flight time of your last leg must be scheduled to keep you no greater than 16 hours. After flying in the morning, we were on ground stop into the northeast for six+ hours. The flight plan showed 55 minutes. We had to be rolling down the runway at or before 15+05 after the showtime yesterday morning to be legal.

After getting airborne and the flight goes longer than 55 minutes and takes you over 16 hours, that's "legal." Safe? I don't know. But it is legal. As long as that last leg was flight planned to land you no greater than 16 hours.

I've seen crews get to the end of the runway for takeoff, get a delay, and have to go back to the gate because if they took off they would exceed the 16 hours. Don't know if it is an FAA term or a company term, but the required OFF time is listed on our paperwork as the Critical Crew Off (CCO) time. If you're not off by that time, you can't go.

Your question was the legal ramifications of violating the rule. I would say a violation would be if your flight time at takeoff would have taken you beyond 16 hours and you took off anyway. I think that would be a violation and you should file an ASAP/NASA report if your airline participates in that program to cover yourself.

 

[AutoBus]

Had this just last night. The flight time of your last leg must be scheduled to keep you no greater than 16 hours. After flying in the morning, we were on ground stop into the northeast for six+ hours. The flight plan showed 55 minutes. We had to be rolling down the runway at or before 15+05 after the showtime yesterday morning to be legal.

After getting airborne and the flight goes longer than 55 minutes and takes you over 16 hours, that's "legal." Safe? I don't know. But it is legal. As long as that last leg was flight planned to land you no greater than 16 hours.

Agreed, with planned 55 minute segment you would legally be a pumpkin at 15+06 and could not takeoff, but if you took off at 15+04 or 15+05 and went over 16+00 due to unplanned holding, etc you would be OK.

 

[pianoman]

Diverting midleg sounds like making a fatiguing situation worse. You're legal as long as you were within the time when you rolled for takeoff. If not, they're correct; you should gate return on the ground if you're not going to make it.

 

[A350]

All:

Per the Whitlow interpretation of the 16 hour duty rule....you must include average taxi in time of 7 mins and 15 min debrief (22 mins total) to your block time before takeoff clearance is issued. (at least at my airline)

If you go over that based on further delays, weather, or other issues out of your control, you are fine.

A350

 

[DrewBlows]

All:

Per the Whitlow interpretation of the 16 hour duty rule....you must include average taxi in time of 7 mins and 15 min debrief (22 mins total) to your block time before takeoff clearance is issued. (at least at my airline)

If you go over that based on further delays, weather, or other issues out of your control, you are fine.

A350

That's interesting. We use 20 minute "debrief", but I've never seen a standard taxi time. Every time the situation has come up where I would be up against contractual or FAR limits it has been to CVG and I used 5 minutes taxi, which was more than adequate considering the time of night.

 

[mach none]

Don't do it and you will be safe. Our airline has a max duty day of 14 hours during the day and 11 for night (I know the get around it via showtime). The way I look at it, you turn into a pumpkin at 14/11 hours and those times must include 15 minutes debrief with normal taxi/cruise and turn times.


This is particularly important since we are in Section 6 talks.

 

[accinelli]

Searched, couldn't find it. Does anyone know of the legal ramifications of going over a 16 hour duty day while you are following the ALPA guidelines? Can you be violated? I hear rumors of people diverting midleg, don't know the details.

​

​

Get a life.

 

[737 Pylt]

[/left]

Get a life.

F/A work rules are different junior! How about worrying about serving coffee and soda's.

737

 

[DrewBlows]

[/left]

Get a life.

If you are not interested in the topic why do you post?

 

[737 Pylt]

If you are not interested in the topic why do you post?

Because she's an a'hole! Just do a search on the rest of her posts. A pissed of flight attendant looking to do nothing!

737

 

[Skippy]

Correct-- you need to plug in ETE plus avg taxi time Plus duty time off by which your company abides by..

So add ETE plus 7 min taxi time plus 15 minutes duty off time and voila - your magic number. SO, for a 55 minute flight,-- work backwards you need to land by 15 hours and 38 minutes of duty, if not you are illegal, unles you get unforseen holding, etc, then it is ok to go over in that case.

So, you need to takeoff by14 hours 43 minutes, if you dont, then you are illegal to take off and go back to the gate and get a hotel,


SKIPPY legal since 1998

 

[chperplt]

The Whitlow letter states that you MUST be able to show a minimum of 8 hours rest for every rolling 24 hour period. There is no such animal as legal to start legal to finish if you exceed 16 hours of continuous duty. There's no going over 16 hours on a 121 flight... Do not confuse exceeding 8 hour scheduled between rest periods and this. They are two completely different rules with completely different interpretations. If you can't show the minimum 8 hours rest in that 24 hour period, you better hope you're on a 91 leg.

You can and most likely will be violated for doing this. Companies self disclose this to the FAA when it happens to save their bacon. You're the one left to deal with Mr. FAA.

 

[SneakyJake]

Has anyone here been called to the carpet for this? I just have never heard of a pilot getting busted for it. I see the rule, but not the consequence.

 

[SneakyJake]

Found this at the bottom of the paragraph. Guess it answers my question. Sorry.

The only
exception to this example is if you estimate you will arrive on
time, but are delayed in the air after takeoff. In that event,
you may continue to your destination.​

 

[regionalcap]

Has anyone here been called to the carpet for this? I just have never heard of a pilot getting busted for it. I see the rule, but not the consequence.

When you break the rule, you are busting an FAR. Break an FAR and the FAA comes after you. Clear enough?

 

[Crossky]

I actually went over 16 once when I was a green T-prop commuter CA. I didn't think to include the taxi in or 15 min off time. Busted 16 by about 10 min I would guess. If I had realized it then I would've fibbed the times cause we called them in.

I worst part of the deal wasn't me (us) getting into trouble with the feds or co., we didn't. We were doing CDO stand ups and as I remember they gave us sixteen hours rest, which made our show time 2230 instead of 1930. This is turn reduced our time at the hotel from 5 hours to 2-3. Safety first, logic second!

At least they gave us a hotel . . .

 

[regionalcap]

Count you blessings then.

 

[SneakyJake]

When you break the rule, you are busting an FAR. Break an FAR and the FAA comes after you. Clear enough?

Not really smarta$$, the last post I made cleared it up for me. It says you can go over if you follow the rules. You gave no argument or proof otherwise. Thanks for playing.

 

[igneousy2]

You must count the taxi in time but it is debatable if you must count the "debrief" time. Is the taxi time part of the revenue flight...absolutely...is the debrief??? Whitlow is NOT clear on this.

The part that most people get violated on is not on the 16 hour day but the following day. People forget that if you go all the way to 16 that you are now under the reduceded rest rules even if you were coming off of days off.

Later

 

[regionalcap]

Not really smarta$$, the last post I made cleared it up for me. It says you can go over if you follow the rules. You gave no argument or proof otherwise. Thanks for playing.

I wasn't trying to be a smartass. YOU asked what happens if you break the rule. I did not see your other post and I apologize for that. If you unintentionally go over 16 hours (i.e. unplanned holding) then you are not breaking the rules. I am just saying that if you do go over 16 hours by not following the proper rules, you can get investigated by the FAA.

 

[fried chickens]

As I understand it, the debrief time doesn't count for the flight in question except for only the next rolling 24 hrs. On the last leg, as long as I can takeoff and block in while looking back 24hrs and see that I have 8hrs then I'm legal. You need to count the 15/20 debrief time from the last duty day.

I have heard different things on diverting on the last leg. Some have said that you're legal to takeoff from the alternate to the original destination since that's what you're originally scheduled even though you're over 16hrs before you taxi out. I don't agree with this, any thought?

 

[accinelli]

F/A work rules are different junior! How about worrying about serving coffee and soda's.

737

Real mature wannabe.

 

[accinelli]

F/A work rules are different junior! How about worrying about serving coffee and soda's.

737

Real mature wannabe.

 

[accinelli]

If you are not interested in the topic why do you post?

Who said I am not interested in the topic. But then again I meant what I told the poster about getting a life.

 

[igneousy2]

As I understand it, the debrief time doesn't count for the flight in question except for only the next rolling 24 hrs. On the last leg, as long as I can takeoff and block in while looking back 24hrs and see that I have 8hrs then I'm legal. You need to count the 15/20 debrief time from the last duty day.

I have heard different things on diverting on the last leg. Some have said that you're legal to takeoff from the alternate to the original destination since that's what you're originally scheduled even though you're over 16hrs before you taxi out. I don't agree with this, any thought?

You don't need to deviate if you run out of time enroute.

You absolutely cannot derpart your alternate if you do not comply with Whitlow.

24 hour lookback under Whitlow has absolutely NOTHING to do with what you were originally scheduled. Prior to take-off on a flight under part 121 domestic rules, you must look back and be able to show at least 8 hours of rest (sometimes more) for every minute of the the current expected duration of the flight under the current conditions.

Sometimes the required rest under Whitlow is MORE than 8 hours. If you already worked 16 hours the day before then your maximum duty day is 14 or as little as 12 hours.

Later

 

[737 Pylt]

Who said I am not interested in the topic. But then again I meant what I told the poster about getting a life.

I think you're lost again junior!
The f/a boards aren't here. Now be gone skunk, you're stinking up the place!

737

 

[fried chickens]

You don't need to deviate if you run out of time enroute.

You absolutely cannot derpart your alternate if you do not comply with Whitlow.

24 hour lookback under Whitlow has absolutely NOTHING to do with what you were originally scheduled. Prior to take-off on a flight under part 121 domestic rules, you must look back and be able to show at least 8 hours of rest (sometimes more) for every minute of the the current expected duration of the flight under the current conditions.

Sometimes the required rest under Whitlow is MORE than 8 hours. If you already worked 16 hours the day before then your maximum duty day is 14 or as little as 12 hours.

Later

I know that. I meant if you had to divert for wx on the last leg and that leg takes you over 16hrs. I thought I heard someone in the training dept. say that you were legal to fly to your original destination from your wx alternate.

Thinking more about it now, the guy might have been talking about flying more than 8 hrs when originally scheduled 7+ and then diverting.


Anyways, best way to avoid all this is not to schedule that pushes FAA regs.

 

[UAL'01]

If you divert and you are over your 16 hours, you cannot depart your diversion airport until you get your rest (8 hours or more). Also, the 15 minutes debrief time are part of your duty time ( are you getting paid Per Diem?), therefore it is part of your 16 hours. 45 minutes showtime (or 1 hour at some airlines), plus flight day, plus debrief time =total duty time. It has to be less than 16 hours unless you had unforseen holding or delays in the air.

 

[pianoman]

I know that. I meant if you had to divert for wx on the last leg and that leg takes you over 16hrs. I thought I heard someone in the training dept. say that you were legal to fly to your original destination from your wx alternate.

Thinking more about it now, the guy might have been talking about flying more than 8 hrs when originally scheduled 7+ and then diverting.


Anyways, best way to avoid all this is not to schedule that pushes FAA regs.

You're correct; the 8 hours limit for being rescheduled does not apply if it is a continuation of a divert.