Crosswind question

[Pecan]

Alright guys...I'm fixin to show some of my ignorance here.

Just been watching some Youtube videos on crosswind landings. It appears that many of the larger aircraft were actually landing in a crab--not only the test flights. The aircraft that I've flown (except the T-38) all require you to land without any side-loads by either executing the wing-low method around 200-300 feet or kicking it out in the flare (not recommended in the Maddog).

Were these guys landing correctly for their respective aircraft or were these just shots of dorked up landings that turned out OK? Please enlighten my aerodynamically challenged mind.

Thanks

 

[CSY Mon]

Sideload is ok..Especially on a wet or slick runway.

The airplane will straighten itself out.

In a steady cross wind across a dry runway, sure, kick it straight. (B-747)

On the B-767 and B-757 they recommend ya land wing down like a Cessna...Set up the configuration way early to get stable...Keep cross-controlling all the way down..And keep the power up..Lots of drag from them crossed controls.

 

[Checknsix]

The 744 was designed to take a 45 degree hit without damage to the gear. I forget the exact limitation of the angle of bank during landing, but it is very low due to the outboard nacelles....something like 4.5 degrees because impact is at 7 degrees. Sorry...it's been a while since I taught that airplane.

A lot of people are under the impression that the main gear can rotate to handle the xwind landings. Not true. The mains turn automatically...but only on the ground.

Checknsix

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

You fly the Airbus (320's and 319's) in a crab till about the last 5 feet then kick it around. Don't let the wing come up as you rotate around its axis. Basically try to get the forward momentum of the plane aligned with the path of the nose right at touchdown. If you rotate around late, no big deal its forward momentum will straighten it out for you but everyone in back knows you suck.

When I think about it, it lands pretty much like a light twin.

 

[skystud25]

there's plenty of clowns out there that think if it has a swept wing, you shouldn't do a cross control landing. Hogswallop. These pilots simply suck and would rather cloak their lack of stick skills with some conjured fantasy about phantom aerodynamics than admit they're incompetent.

 

[AA717driver]

To rephrase what skystud said: An airplane is an airplane. If you don't land in a crab in a 172, don't do it in a 747--or anything in between.

Keep in mind, no one puts normal stuff on You Tube... TC

 

[AdlerDriver]

The aircraft that I've flown (except the T-38) all require you to land without any side-loads by either executing the wing-low method around 200-300 feet or kicking it out in the flare (not recommended in the Maddog).

Not recommended by who?? Every crosswind landing I've done in the Maddog has been kicked out in the flare. Give it a try sometime it's a beautiful thing.

Personally, I've never been a fan of the wing-low at 200-300 feet - no matter what the aircraft. Several reasons:

1- You just spent the last few minutes getting the jet trimmed/power set and things are wired. Now, in the last half-mile or so, you're going to introduce additional flight control inputs that induce more drag, need more power and will probably change the pitch you had set all requiring last minute corrections.

2- If you're flying a cat-1 to mins, you may be doing all the above after you just broke out and acquired the runway environment.

3- How many times have you had a cross-wind at 15-20+ knots at 200-300 feet drop off to nil in the flare? You can slip an aircraft to the runway in calm conditions as long as both control inputs cancel each other out. All you end up with is more drag and a higher sink rate. Personally, I'd rather put in what I know I need in the flare than what I thought I needed at 200 feet.

Cheers.

 

[Pecan]

Not recommended by who??

Cheers.

Adler: Great win last night for the BoSox!!

Anyway.....The FDX MD-11 training department teaches to start the X-wind align maneuver by 200' (unless there are strong X-winds) and have it aligned by 100'.
"Crosswind landings are accomplished by flying the final

approach in a wings level attitude with a crab into
the wind. At approximately 200​

​

' agl, align the fuselage
with the runway by smoothly applying rudder and
maintain runway centerline by lowering the upwind
wing. In high crosswinds, consideration should be given
to commencing the align maneuver prior to 200'.​

The align maneuver shall be established by 100' agl.

NOTES​

Excessive sink rates and subsequent tailstrikes
have occurred as the result of a
late or abrupt align maneuver. The align
maneuver has an associated increase in
drag, and if unchecked with power, will​

result in an increased sink rate."
CFM 7-1-6-2

Sounds like it has something to do with trying to minimize tailstrikes, but I used to "kick it out" in the KC-10 quite regularly. Either method still has you landing without the sideload.

These guys http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rbMLuHKmd0&mode=related&search= are clearly doing very little to align the fuselage. It seems very unnatural--at least from my perspective.

Cheers

 

[TWA Dude]

Basically it's just laziness by a lot of airline pilots that they don't bother to kick out the crab before touchdown. I always try to land just like my CFI taught me to in the Piper Tomahawk (except for getting the stall horn at touchdown).

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Keep in mind, no one puts normal stuff on You Tube... TC

Everything I learned about flying I learned fromn YouTube, Penscola Wings of Gold, that crazy helo pilot from the A-Team and the wonder twins (shape of an eagle, shape of an ice cube).

Maybe I am watching too much tv and surfing too much internet? I guess that's why I am still afraid of Sleestacks.


Airbus lands itself very poorly in xwind landings, or maybe that is just me. I am German though and we don't work well with the French.

 

[WSurf]

I guess that's why I am still afraid of Sleestacks.

Wait are those them funky creatures from 'Land of the Lost'?

Those guys scared me too!

What a blast from the past!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6LZzVCpYDY&mode=related&search=

 

[DeucesWild]

I've watched many pilots land an airliner in a crab, and while I'm cringing it's all I can do not to push the rudder pedal right at the end to straighten it out. I've also watched many pilots try to take the crab out with aileron and induce a sideload drift downwind. Personally, I feel landing in a crab or with some drift is poor airmanship.

I attempt to make every landing without any crab or drift. Many hours in a tailwheel airplane will teach you that doing otherwise makes the landing more interesting than it needed to be!

 

[Dr. Rumack]

Bavarian,
You might want to check out the Great Space Coaster for tips on crosswind landings.
Respectfully,
Sigmund the Sea Monster

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Just wait til they get the multi-crew licensing on line. Then you can fly with people who have 10 hours in a real airplane.

 

[Captzaahlie]

Wait are those them funky creatures from 'Land of the Lost'?

Those guys scared me too!

What a blast from the past!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6LZzVCpYDY&mode=related&search=

My brother used to pretend that he was a sleestack and chase me around the house when i was kid............................ i still have nightmares

capt. z

ps: i think there is still a small colony of them living just outside EWN............

 

[WSurf]

ps: i think there is still a small colony of them living just outside EWN............

Gee thanks! Now I know I won't get any sleep tonight You son of a Biscuit!!

 

[Captzaahlie]

Gee thanks! Now I know I won't get any sleep tonight You son of a Biscuit!!

You got Marines and Osprey's down there you'll be fine......

 

[Captzaahlie]

Wait are those them funky creatures from 'Land of the Lost'?

Those guys scared me too!

What a blast from the past!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6LZzVCpYDY&mode=related&search=

The uniforms are a little different but they kind of remind me of the TSA.....
Lot's of hissing.......
take your lap topsssssss out of the casesssssssssss,
hiss ,
empty metal objestshissssssssss outa your pockhitssssssssssssssss
hiss

Scary looking, but totally harmless idiots..........

see for yourself click below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpNd-Dg6_zQ&mode=related&search=

 

[Alcatraz]

Back to the Thread...

It's been a while since I've flown a 737 that is authorized to autoland, but from what I remember the autopilot lands in a crab. The mains caster a little to accommodate this (like up to 10 or 15 knots max xwind?)... which I think explains why some older 737s don't taxi straight... the casters aren't quite centered.

I just like how I can take off in an old -300 with the nosewheel glued to the centerline, yet the airplane yaws back and forth during the roll.

 

[Captzaahlie]

It's been a while since I've flown a 737 that is authorized to autoland, but from what I remember the autopilot lands in a crab. The mains caster a little to accommodate this (like up to 10 or 15 knots max xwind?)... which I think explains why some older 737s don't taxi straight... the casters aren't quite centered.

I just like how I can take off in an old -300 with the nosewheel glued to the centerline, yet the airplane yaws back and forth during the roll.

I asked the offset gear question to a former Boeing engineer and he was surprised that it was that noticeable from an A/C following on a taxiway. His reply was that the jig used to build those 73's was actually misaligned (both gear are not equal distance from the center line, longitudinal axis) and Boeing decided it was not going to affect anything, so they did not spend the money to straighten out the building jig. I have no reason to doubt the guy but I never researched the matter.

Thanks for bringing us back to the thread......
Maybe the nightmares and flashbacks will go away now...........
I got to stop drinking soooo much of that cough syrup!

 

[AdlerDriver]

Adler: Great win last night for the BoSox!!

Anyway.....The FDX MD-11 training department teaches to start the X-wind align maneuver by 200' (unless there are strong X-winds) and have it aligned by 100'.
"Crosswind landings are accomplished by flying the final

approach in a wings level attitude with a crab into
the wind. At approximately 200' agl, align the fuselage
with the runway by smoothly applying rudder and
maintain runway centerline by lowering the upwind
wing. In high crosswinds, consideration should be given
to commencing the align maneuver prior to 200'.​

The align maneuver shall be established by 100' agl.

NOTES
Excessive sink rates and subsequent tailstrikes
have occurred as the result of a
late or abrupt align maneuver. The align
maneuver has an associated increase in
drag, and if unchecked with power, will​

result in an increased sink rate."
CFM 7-1-6-2

Sounds like it has something to do with trying to minimize tailstrikes, but I used to "kick it out" in the KC-10 quite regularly. Either method still has you landing without the sideload.

These guys http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rbMLuHKmd0&mode=related&search= are clearly doing very little to align the fuselage. It seems very unnatural--at least from my perspective.

Cheers

I saw this change an FOM revision or two ago. I think it was thanks to the MD-10 porked away x-wind landing at MEM. I guess I'll have to abide by it if that'll get me through training. Yes sir - three bags full. Hit the line and clear it with the Capt - that's another story.

However, it's stupid. You can't mandate airmanship and flying skills. Another "written for the lowest common denominator" rule in an attempt to save us from ourselves. Maybe putting a good ID on substandard players and calling a spade a spade would be a better solution.
Another might be getting away from this love of automation the MD crowd seems to have (at least in the training center). The last FOM revision at least addressed handflying and got away from the AP on at 500' until short final trend we were on for so many years. If it's clear and a million and you're feeling up to it, you ought to be hand flying with the auto-throttles off to maintain the skills. (Then we wouldn't have FCIFs that basically say - Hey, stupid - you guys with the autothrottle still have an airspeed indicator - you might want to look at it ever now and then.)
Then a maybe a big cross-wind at MEM might not put someone in over their head.
But, hey, that's just me. I haven't flown a Fedex MD-11 yet. Maybe they're different.

 

[highsky]

Boeing authorizes the option of landing the 757/767 in a full crab on a dry runway with up to a 30 kt direct crosswind. Doesn't look pretty or score any cool points, but it does work, and it is approved.

I've seen some similar videos floating around of the 777 x-wind certification. Pretty impressive that Boeings are that tough and forgiving. Aside from the initial certification, I've never seen anyone intentionally exercise the "land in full crab" option.

 

[CSY Mon]

I've never seen anyone intentionally exercise the "land in full crab" option.

Ya ever landed a B-747 in a 20 knot cross wind on a icy/slick runway?

Keep the crab in there as ya have no traction once ya kick out the crab and get the wings level.

In other words, ya may need the crab in there for a few more moments to keep it on the centerline while the spoilers come out and ya transfer the weight from the wings to the wheels.
Because of the lack of traction, ya will not put much side-load on the gear.

On a dry runway however, ya don't need the crab on touchdown and the sideload will eat tires.

 

[WSurf]

Ya ever landed a B-747 in a 20 knot cross wind on a icy/slick runway?

Keep the crab in there as ya have no traction once ya kick out the crab and get the wings level.

In other words, ya may need the crab in there for a few more moments to keep it on the centerline while the spoilers come out and ya transfer the weight from the wings to the wheels.
Because of the lack of traction, ya will not put much side-load on the gear.

On a dry runway however, ya don't need the crab on touchdown and the sideload will eat tires.

If I remember, the same goes for the Space Shuttle!

 

[SuperFLUF]

Our AFM recommends landing the 75 & 76 in the crab and gives the "option" of a wing down during the flare to a max of 10 degrees of bank. I suppose more than 10 degrees in a gusty max crosswind situation could drag something. (at least thats what they say in the AFM)

Some guys land in the crab (with the resulting crappy landing) and some guys kick it out in the flare. I've flown with one 73 pilot that not only started the wing down slip at about 500 feet, he insisted I do it too. Not the greatest sensation for the folks in the back. But not the best time to be arguing about technique either.

 

[bubbers44]

Had a copilot get our 757 all crossed up at 500 feet trying to land with a 15 knot crosswind and almost thought he was going to have to go around. I don't start the wing down and straighten the mains to track down the runway until the flare. I was taught this way and the last minute decrab and touchdown will only work if you don't float during the flare.

 

[DoubleB]

I've never seen ANYONE intentionally fly wingdown top rudder close to the runway in the 75/767.
I HAVE seen some cross control - aileron into/opposite rudder BUT NOT WING DOWN!
Most of us crab, then align the nose w/ the runway w/ the rudder in the flare. Believe it or not - you are actually cross controlling when you do this. By aligning the fuselage w/ the rudder, you must use opposite aileron to maintain the wings level.
Does the aircraft fly wingdown top rudder during an auto land?? That answer would be NO.
WIngdown / top rudder is what we all learned in small Cessna's. Loose that terminology when you get to heavy jets.

 

[AdlerDriver]

I've never seen ANYONE intentionally fly wingdown top rudder close to the runway in the 75/767.

I HAVE seen some cross control - aileron into/opposite rudder BUT NOT WING DOWN!
Most of us crab, then align the nose w/ the runway w/ the rudder in the flare. Believe it or not - you are actually cross controlling when you do this. By aligning the fuselage w/ the rudder, you must use opposite aileron to maintain the wings level.
Does the aircraft fly wingdown top rudder during an auto land?? That answer would be NO.
WIngdown / top rudder is what we all learned in small Cessna's. Loose that terminology when you get to heavy jets.

Oh NO!!! – NOT WING DOWN – Cats and dogs – living together!!! Mass Hysteria!!!
So, the fact that you’ve never seen ANYONE do it must mean it’s a poor technique? Does “most of us” mean most of the pilots at your airline. You can’t possibly be speaking for most of the 757/767 qualified pilots around the world. Is your evaluation of this based on just one airline’s method/procedures for landing their aircraft? Could it be that your airline chooses to mandate/teach their pilots to land that way – and that might be why you’ve never seen ANYONE do it another way? Every company is different - If Fedex has their way (based on their current FOM), every new hire that’s only flown a type aircraft at Fedex will be saying he’s never seen ANYONE intentionally kick the jet around in the flare. As you may have read in earlier post to this thread, they are requiring a rudder/wing-low slip to be established by 100’ AGL. It’s easy to jump into the airline biz from the military and assume that your airline’s way of doing business is the only way or the best way. I know I tended to think that way.

After 3 airlines, I have a much different perspective. Every crosswind landing I did in the 757/767 at UAL involved aligning the jet with the runway in the flare and dropping the wing to control drift. If I did it just right, my upwind truck would touch down first – just like a Cessna. I used the same technique when I moved to the A320, 737 and MD-11 – very comfortable and definitely not something to “lose when you get to heavy jets”. I was offered the “crosswind controls at 100-200’ on final technique” by one instructor but it was just a technique – not required as procedure. Everyone’s got to find what works for them. What I will say is, in all the crosswind discussions/instruction I’ve heard, I personally have NEVER heard of the “align the fuselage and don’t drop the wing” technique you are offering. You obviously have but I’d have to guess you and those using it, might be in the minority. A good 20-25 knot crosswind is going to give you a drift when you align the fuselage. From the sounds of it, your technique is just the standard align maneuver done so close to the ground that any drift that develops doesn’t go on too long because the aircraft lands. You still might have a drift vector to deal with until the aircraft completely stops flying and depending on snow/rain, etc. that may make your rollout a bit more exciting than if you’d just dropped the wing in the first place. Not to mention, tires last longer if they don’t slide 1000’ at a 20 degree angle to the runway. If I was teaching a guy to do it, I’d try to get him to deal with the crosswind controls in the flare for the reasons I’ve already said previously in this thread. If he couldn’t hack that, then my next option would be to have him put the controls in out on final. Maybe he hasn’t developed the skills to make it all happen in the flare. To quote my favorite bad ass – “A man’s got know his limitations”.

An aircraft in an auto land situation doesn’t fly wing down because it doesn’t need to. If the crosswinds are high enough to require an alignment maneuver to land, most likely the crosswinds are out of limits for an auto land. I can’t speak for all aircraft but the 6 types I’ve operated that are capable of auto land ALL had crosswind limits of 10 knots for this exact reason.

……….. Believe it or not - you are actually cross controlling when you do this. By aligning the fuselage w/ the rudder, you must use opposite aileron to maintain the wings level.

I’m trying to reign in my sarcasm here but YGBSM. Is this a revelation to you? Swept wing aircraft + yaw(rudder) = roll. Didn’t we all get that on day one of aerodynamics?
Anyway, so – yeah, you put the rudder in and the jet rolls in the direction of the rudder input. You counter with aileron and viola, you have a crosswind landing. Don’t you think you might someday encounter a crosswind high enough to require you to counter some drift with a little wing low – instead of just wing level? Obviously you don’t want to drag an engine but we’re not talking about a huge drop of the wing like a 65 knot Cessna might need. Give it a try sometime.
:beer: