Need second opinions for a friend

[It will roll]

Got a buddy in a situation, and I told him Id get some other opinions on his deal. So let the debate begin.

Situation. Assuiming commercial-multi w/high performance/high altitude endorsements. Can he log PIC time in a Navajo and a King Air 200 on empty legs (Part 91) after dropping pax off on 135 legs? He sits right seat, next to the "Captain" / PIC. He takes off, flies, lands. He is not on the company's 135 cert., not sure whether he is on their insurance policy either. So, what do you think?

 

[EWRJ0225]

if he is an MEI, he can get 5 hours in type and "instruct" the captain, assuming the captain wants to log dual received and "your buddy" can log dual given pilot in command. Otherwise he would have to be the PIC on the dead legs. But two rated pilots can't log PIC unless one is giving instruction as the sole authority, and the other is the "sole manipulator" of the controls. I bet the company has something in its specs about non qualified pilots logging time when they shouldn't. I don't know all the loopholes of logging time and i think i might be off.

Why doesnt "your buddy" just do a SIC 135 check ride and then he could log the time as total time, multi engine land, and SIC. I know everyone wants that coveted PIC time, but unless your really making the decisions in the plane, numbers in a logbook are just paper and ink and in no way reflect the actual experience of the pilot.

And I would venture to say that a fresh SIC in a 135 operation, may technically be able to log some PIC somewhere here and there, but I seriously doubt the Captain is just throwing his hands in the air and relinquishing authority to his Second in Command. So there in fact he is not "THE PIC", which may come up in an interview.

Interviewer: "So Mr. Johnson, shows here on your excellent resume that you have 150 hours of PIC in a Navajo and 250 hours of PIC time in a BE 200. But you never took a 135 PIC checkride, interesting. Did your local FBO charge you wet rates for those planes or did you buy them yourself.

Mr. Johnson: Oh well I logged PIC time while the captain supervised me on dead legs. But I was in command of the flight the WHOLE time. I was the "sole manipulator" of the autopilot in an aircraft which I was appropriately rated!

Interviewer: I see, so tell me about a time you had a problem with a COPILOT/FO/SIC?

Mr. Johnson: Well i have never worked in a crew environment as PIC?!

Interviewer: Then how did you get this PIC time

Mr. Johnson: Well isnt the difference between PIC and SIC just a two inch column in a log book! The regs said I could log it as PIC! So i did!

Interviewer: Are you interviewing anywhere else? It's ok to be honest!

Mr. Johnson: No! its always been my dream to work at XYZ Airlines.

Interviewer: Too Bad, (looks over at HR representative......) you have anything for Mr. Johnson.


Im Bored

 

[It will roll]

Those are very good points, and illustrated very colorfully. Even though, according to all the part 61 bs we were taught, it seems like he CAN log it PIC, your right, he is not acting as PIC, and calling the shots, (diversion, IFR approaches, fuel loads, int'l paperwork, etc.) So, in the interview for a regional, which is what he is going for, I'm sure it would come up because that is why they check log books, to look for that "Grey" time. Problem is I dont think that 135 place has a provision in their specs to have a SIC in a single pilot aircraft, they just like the extra set of 3 bars for the pax to see to give them the warm fuzzies. So SIC time is out, and I know for a fact he doesn't want to do his CFI/MEI. Thanks for the input! I'll count all that as a NO, he cant do it. Anyone else?

 

[Ridgeback]

Interviewer: "So Mr. Johnson, shows here on your excellent resume that you have 150 hours of PIC in a Navajo and 250 hours of PIC time in a BE 200. But you never took a 135 PIC checkride, interesting. Did your local FBO charge you wet rates for those planes or did you buy them yourself.

Mr. Johnson: Oh well I logged PIC time while the captain supervised me on dead legs. But I was in command of the flight the WHOLE time. I was the "sole manipulator" of the autopilot in an aircraft which I was appropriately rated!

Interviewer: I see, so tell me about a time you had a problem with a COPILOT/FO/SIC?

Mr. Johnson: Well i have never worked in a crew environment as PIC?!

Interviewer: Then how did you get this PIC time

Mr. Johnson: Well isnt the difference between PIC and SIC just a two inch column in a log book! The regs said I could log it as PIC! So i did!

Interviewer: Are you interviewing anywhere else? It's ok to be honest!

Mr. Johnson: No! its always been my dream to work at XYZ Airlines.

Interviewer: Too Bad, (looks over at HR representative......) you have anything for Mr. Johnson.

Thank you Thank you Thank you......
Please explain this to the retards that want to log their FO time at XYZ airline because they have an SIC type rating and they answer YES TO THE ARE YOU TYPED IN THE THE AIRCRAFT.

 

[Rekks Inbound]

Finally,

Someone else who understands the difference between privately operated aircraft and aircraft operated on an air carrier certificate. And a PIC type vs an SIC type.

Peace.

Rekks

 

[doh]

if he is an MEI, he can get 5 hours in type and "instruct" the captain, assuming the captain wants to log dual received and "your buddy" can log dual given pilot in command. Otherwise he would have to be the PIC on the dead legs. But two rated pilots can't log PIC unless one is giving instruction as the sole authority, and the other is the "sole manipulator" of the controls. I bet the company has something in its specs about non qualified pilots logging time when they shouldn't. I don't know all the loopholes of logging time and i think i might be off.

Why doesnt "your buddy" just do a SIC 135 check ride and then he could log the time as total time, multi engine land, and SIC. I know everyone wants that coveted PIC time, but unless your really making the decisions in the plane, numbers in a logbook are just paper and ink and in no way reflect the actual experience of the pilot.

And I would venture to say that a fresh SIC in a 135 operation, may technically be able to log some PIC somewhere here and there, but I seriously doubt the Captain is just throwing his hands in the air and relinquishing authority to his Second in Command. So there in fact he is not "THE PIC", which may come up in an interview.

Interviewer: "So Mr. Johnson, shows here on your excellent resume that you have 150 hours of PIC in a Navajo and 250 hours of PIC time in a BE 200. But you never took a 135 PIC checkride, interesting. Did your local FBO charge you wet rates for those planes or did you buy them yourself.

Mr. Johnson: Oh well I logged PIC time while the captain supervised me on dead legs. But I was in command of the flight the WHOLE time. I was the "sole manipulator" of the autopilot in an aircraft which I was appropriately rated!

Interviewer: I see, so tell me about a time you had a problem with a COPILOT/FO/SIC?

Mr. Johnson: Well i have never worked in a crew environment as PIC?!

Interviewer: Then how did you get this PIC time

Mr. Johnson: Well isnt the difference between PIC and SIC just a two inch column in a log book! The regs said I could log it as PIC! So i did!

Interviewer: Are you interviewing anywhere else? It's ok to be honest!

Mr. Johnson: No! its always been my dream to work at XYZ Airlines.

Interviewer: Too Bad, (looks over at HR representative......) you have anything for Mr. Johnson.


Im Bored

Let's see, change the BE 200 to navajo time and tell the nice interviewer that grandma left you 20,000 so you rented! Problem solved, they ain't gonna know, and it doesn't matter! Next! And don't preach to me about honesty, they aren't honest with you at the interview at a regional either!

 

[EWRJ0225]

Let's see, change the BE 200 to navajo time and tell the nice interviewer that grandma left you 20,000 so you rented! Problem solved, they ain't gonna know, and it doesn't matter! Next! And don't preach to me about honesty, they aren't honest with you at the interview at a regional either!

i agree they are probably not going to be honest with you on a lot of things, but flight time, i believe, is something that should not be fudged or pencil whipped. Yeah everyone wants to gain experience, but its more than just the numbers in your logbook and if your trying to pose as something your not to a group that is going to pay you to safely fly around human beeings that trust you. You should be 100% honest about your experience and qualifications, because when the time to step up to the plate really happens, your training and experience are what get you out of it. Not how many bics you have went through pencil whipping your master log!

 

[EWRJ0225]

Those are very good points, and illustrated very colorfully. Even though, according to all the part 61 bs we were taught, it seems like he CAN log it PIC, your right, he is not acting as PIC, and calling the shots, (diversion, IFR approaches, fuel loads, int'l paperwork, etc.) So, in the interview for a regional, which is what he is going for, I'm sure it would come up because that is why they check log books, to look for that "Grey" time. Problem is I dont think that 135 place has a provision in their specs to have a SIC in a single pilot aircraft, they just like the extra set of 3 bars for the pax to see to give them the warm fuzzies. So SIC time is out, and I know for a fact he doesn't want to do his CFI/MEI. Thanks for the input! I'll count all that as a NO, he cant do it. Anyone else?

why doesnt he want to get a CFI or MEI, i know that noone wants to actually flight instruct, but its always good to have those ratings on hand. From what I understand its the second most important qualification to apply for a check airman position. The most important would be how strong your knees are.

 

[It will roll]

Hah. Well i'm pretty sure his top reasons for not wanting a CFI/II/MEI etc is
1.$
2.Lazy

oh well. all i can do is be a good friend and try and steer him the right way.

 

[idoitupsidedown]

Hah. Well i'm pretty sure his top reasons for not wanting a CFI/II/MEI etc is
1.$
2.Lazy

oh well. all i can do is be a good friend and try and steer him the right way.

1. Did he really get into flying thinking it would be an inexpensive way to pass his time?
2. It doesn't take much effort to flip burgers.

Be a good friend and give him a big ole' kick in the ass.

 

[Positive Rate]

Got a buddy in a situation, and I told him Id get some other opinions on his deal. So let the debate begin.

Maybe he should .....sign up for flightinfo...and ask himself? (not in a mean tone).........just saying.......

 

[acaTerry]

And don't preach to me about honesty, they aren't honest with you at the interview at a regional either!

That does not excuse YOU for being dishonest...
A lie is a lie.

And why doesn't your freind just work for his advancement like everyone else had to...I'm sick of all these new guys trying to find shortcuts instead of building some real experience that one day may be what saves a plane and it's occupants from disaster.

 

[pilotyip]

With the shortage of entry-level pilots, your buddy should just be up front about what he was doing and not try to pretend he is a real KA PIC. He is not PIC material for anyone's KA operation, however he is developing SIC skills even though he is not an official SIC. He should hit the high points that make him more desirable to his next employer. He (I assume) taking clearances, talking to ATC, reading checklists and he is involved in flying. These are all good things for the next job.

 

[CFIse]

Thanks for the input! I'll count all that as a NO, he cant do it. Anyone else?

Well that would be wrong. Your friend CAN log the time as PIC since they meet the requirements of 61.51. A lot of the things you mention are red herrings and nothing to do with logging PIC, such as high altitude endorsement, insurance etc.

Now the monkeys in the peanut gallery have already started throwing around all the reasons why they think your friend shouldn't log the time, and we'll just have to leave them to their tiny little worlds they live in. Legally the time is loggable.

 

[acaTerry]

Well that would be wrong. Your friend CAN log the time as PIC since they meet the requirements of 61.51. A lot of the things you mention are red herrings and nothing to do with logging PIC, such as high altitude endorsement, insurance etc.

Now the monkeys in the peanut gallery have already started throwing around all the reasons why they think your friend shouldn't log the time, and we'll just have to leave them to their tiny little worlds they live in. Legally the time is loggable.

From the peanut gallery...the guy is splitting hairs. If he was going to stay put in that type of fying that's one thing, but passing yourself off as having been a PIC when you are in fact NOT in command of anything, is just lying. You can delve all you want in the lawyer-type interpreting of the FAR's but a lie is a lie.

 

[pilotyip]

I agree with ACA, can you believe that? But to pass him self off as PIC material with that experience would be a lie, and most interviewers would see through it a heartbeat. But if he is honest, and says yes I legally logged PIC under the 61 reg, but I was really gaining experience so I could learn he will probably come out further ahead.

 

[LavMan]

From the peanut gallery...the guy is splitting hairs. If he was going to stay put in that type of fying that's one thing, but passing yourself off as having been a PIC when you are in fact NOT in command of anything, is just lying. You can delve all you want in the lawyer-type interpreting of the FAR's but a lie is a lie.

If you are having this much interpretation, as quoted above, it probably is not right. Most of us know what "PIC" is. If your not it you are not it. Sit back, work your way up like the rest of us, or do it the other way, and it will come back to get you in the end.

 

[COOPERVANE]

If you search, you'll find that this subject comes up about every week on flightinfo. I have been watching this debate on here for 6 years and more. Two observations.

Anybody can log ANYTHING they want, ANY WAY they want. You just may have to explain it in an interview.

Whoever is in COMMAND of the airplane is the PIC, period. There are few exceptions. You both can't log it. Who is on the insurance? Who signed for the aircraft, and who is the FAA wanting to talk to after an incident? The PIC, not a 100 hour pilot wanting 15 hours watching the autopilot whir away.

I too, am tired of this debate. But I have notice something very important.

All the guys saying to log it seem to be 1000 hour wonder types, splitting hairs and arguing till they're red in the face about how it is legal to log. Marion C. Blakely herself could tell them it was illegal, and they would argue with her. The guys saying it's NOT O.K. have thousands of hours in a 121 environment and absolutely WILL be the ones across the table from you at an interview.

When/If I am ever sitting across from an applicant and I see them padding their logbook with PIC time, or instrument time because it was nighttime and they don't feel like looking outside. I am going to thank them for applying and tell them goodbye. More job security for the rest of us who are honest.

This post will be followed (you watch) wth a CFI or a part 135 guy that SWEARS he/she can legally log it. They will say they talked to someone at a FSDO who says it's O.K. Doesn't matter if you want to fly big ariplanes, you have to get past someone who worked hard and hates people who takes shortcuts and whines about how hard this all is.

Good luck

 

[Grey Ghost]

Just ask Rick at Eagle Jet International! BGGGGGGG! He seems to somehow make it work!!!!! According to him, there is a difference between acting and logging PIC! 61.51 should explain it or that FARs explained book! NUH!!!!!!!

 

[fatdumbandhappy]

What every your “friend” does don't log PIC in something unless you know the systems/limitations very well......Future Interview Question- Oh, I see you have some KingAir PIC time, tell me about ___ system.