Compass one step closer

[Occam's Razor]

Will ALL of the NWA new-hires from now come from Compass?

No.

Will anyone off the street be offered Compass captain slots?

Dunno. That depends on the contract that the NWA MEC Compass Team gets. They're working on it again today. But the math suggests they will need street captains.

Will Mesaba/BigSky and/or PCL guys be offered preferential slots at Compass?

Same deal. There is nothing in the existing terms that requires it, although MSA might qualifiy as a wholly-owned by the time the deal is done.

Will Compass be an ALPA airline?

Yes. The long-term plan is for NWA to build it up, ink a Commercial Services Agreement with them, and sell them to someone else. They did the same a few years ago with PCL.

What will the pay at Compass be like?

Those numbers are out, but I only have a paper copy.

Any other info on Compass would be appreciated!

One of the lurkers on this Forum is one of the guys negotiating the deal. He actually knows everything that's been settled so far. Perhaps he'll weigh-in?


Good luck!

 

[jetflier]

Hey Occam,

Good post M**k

 

[FOrever85]

Is there successorship language for this Scope?

ie: Will it still exist ina a couple of month when MSA becomes a wholly-owned?

Yes,

Our agreement is between ALPA and MAIR, not Mesaba.

But that is why MAIR is going to some backward judge in TX to get the letter reversed, so we will see if we get screwed again or not.

 

[flyboyike]

Compass has been "one step closer" now for quite some time.

 

[N2264J]

Spare me the "plantation mentality" hooey!

I understand my "problems", but you're gonna have to understand that I can actually live without Brand Scope, because I've done a cost-benefit analysis. As cold-blooded as it sounds, I recognize where I am in the strata...what I have...and what I'd have to give up to get you right here with me. It's a lot.

DAL management would be losing a valuable weapon in any such integration: The Whipsaw. How much is that worth to them? Tough to say, but would have been quickly quantified at the negotiating table. Direct costs include the contract. At the time, the number used was North of $800-million in 2000 dollars. That's a minimum! Repeat, minimum!

He's got some nerve coming on the regional board to talk about all the risk the beleaguered mainliners have to endure. Where was the compromise when the Northwest MEC got a $15 million bargaining credit for driving 40 growth airplanes away from Mesaba and Pinnacle? That's @ 200 more Captain seats, more trip pairings, better lines, people moving off reserve, etc. - a lot of money not realized by Mesaba and Pinnicle pilots.

Did the mainliners just wake up one morning and realize they were virulent anti union? When did doing the right thing, that is - fundamentally acting like
a union, require a cost/benefit analysis? A calculated, conscious decision to allow whipsaw was made despite ALPA's so called policy against it. Can union members be treated with any more contempt by "union brothers?"

And yet another excuse is added to the list to pacify the sycophants who still believe:

"We're just too busy now to be a union."
"Baby steps."
"It's just too hard right now with all the bankruptcies to act like a union."
"We've done a cost/benefit analysis and you were determined to be a cost."
(They knew that when they invited us in).

As a dues paying member, it's just stunning to read what this guy is saying. ALPA allowed the "regional" members to be thrown under the bus and they conspired with management to do it. Paying the price of unionism is just too high for the plantation owners. Face it, there are two unions called ALPA and we're not in his "union." It's despicable.

 

[TurboAWD]

you know, the funny (sad) thing is that these guys are so worried about the near term costs to them, that they don't realize that they sold themselves and their careers down the river along with ours...

Scope doesn't cost, it saves!

Turbo

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Back to COMPASS again.

A guy I know just got an interview, and called me to ask me what i know about Compass, which is almost "Less Than Zero" (I liked that movie a lot.).

He is gloing to the interview mostly to find out what Compass is about.

If YOU know anything, please enlighten us.

Thanx!

cliff
YIP

 

[N2264J]

you know, the funny (sad) thing is that these guys are so worried about the near term costs to them, that they don't realize that they sold themselves and their careers down the river along with ours...Scope doesn't cost, it saves!

"ALPA is you! ALPA sucks because you suck."
"We're just too busy now to be a union."
"Baby steps."
"It's just too hard right now with all the bankruptcies to act like a union."
"We've done a cost/benefit analysis and you were determined to be a cost."

Ask yourself this question:

If the "regionals" are a cost to the union, why are they working so hard on their third recruiting drive at Skywest?

When you scratch the surface on that inquiry, you may start to get an insight into the total dysfunctionality of this disaster of a union the legacy pilots have made.

 

[DoinTime]

ALPA allowed the "regional" members to be thrown under the bus and they conspired with management to do it. Paying the price of unionism is just too high for the plantation owners. Face it, there are two unions called ALPA and we're not in his "union." It's despicable.

Try not displace your anger towards ALPA when NWALPA is to blame. The two are distinctly different organizations that have little connections between them.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Try not displace your anger towards ALPA when NWALPA is to blame. The two are distinctly different organizations that have little connections between them.

That's precisely the point. Until you find a way for them to not be "two distintly different organizations", you do not have an effective ALPA. Place the blame where you want, but it still makes for an ineffective ALPA.

 

[saabservant]

Joe: I agree

 

[IHateMgmt]

He's got some nerve coming on the regional board to talk about all the risk the beleaguered mainliners have to endure. Where was the compromise when the Northwest MEC got a $15 million bargaining credit for driving 40 growth airplanes away from Mesaba and Pinnacle? That's @ 200 more Captain seats, more trip pairings, better lines, people moving off reserve, etc. - a lot of money not realized by Mesaba and Pinnicle pilots.

Here's a concept that I want you to try hard to understand... The larger the percentage of flying at regionals there is, the longer it takes us to get through this regional circus act and to where we want to be. You seem like a smart enough guy... I don't know why this one's so hard for you. Now, I'm not saying that ALPA is perfect, but at least they seem to be barking up the right tree.

 

[DoinTime]

That's precisely the point. Until you find a way for them to not be "two distintly different organizations", you do not have an effective ALPA. Place the blame where you want, but it still makes for an ineffective ALPA.

I don't disagree but change will not be prompted from the outside in. Had you not abandoned your MEC post at ASA maybe you could have worked your way into a position where you could effect change.

There is no doubt that ALPA has its fair share of problems. The same could be said for the U.S. government. Unfortunately, both of these organizations are to old and to large to be outright replaced by a process short of a revolution. What ALPA needs are talented, dedicated pilots with a wide range of professional experience to take a long term interest in this profession and remold the bylaws. The heckling from the sidelines by nameless, faceless idiots does nobody any good.

 

[DoinTime]

Here's a concept that I want you to try hard to understand... The larger the percentage of flying at regionals there is, the longer it takes us to get through this regional circus act and to where we want to be. You seem like a smart enough guy... I don't know why this one's so hard for you. Now, I'm not saying that ALPA is perfect, but at least they seem to be barking up the right tree.

Its important to note that NWALPA was not trying to capture those 40 growth airplanes for their own pilots to fly but rather they specifically engineered the deal to divert this growth into carriers OTHER than XJ and PCL. That is not barking up the right tree.

 

[N2264J]

Try not displace your anger towards ALPA when NWALPA is to blame. The two are distinctly different organizations that have little connections between them.

Oh, I disagree.

There are no contracts or side letters unless and until the president signs on the line.

ALPA and NWALPA are one and the same.

 

[DoinTime]

Oh, I disagree.

There are no contracts or side letters unless and until the president signs on the line.

ALPA and NWALPA are one and the same.

The president of ALPA has very little latitude in what they can refuse to endorse. If you knew what the inside of ALPA looked like you'd know this. With some exceptions each MEC is in control of their own destiny.

 

[N2264J]

Here's a concept that I want you to try hard to understand... The larger the percentage of flying at regionals there is, the longer it takes us to get through this regional circus act and to where we want to be.

I guess it depends on where you want to be. I think it's all going to be a circus act soon. Most of Delta flying is now being done by Delta Connection pilots. That horse left the barn in 2000 when the Delta MEC, doing business as ALPA, denied our request for a PID.

Because the Delta pilots are in the minority on their own property, they have already sold their bargaining leverage for short term gains. They just don't seem to realize it yet. But if you think those cream puff contracts are coming back someday, in my opinion, they ain't.

The majors carrier contracts with their defined benefit plans, cushy work rules and big pay checks are under attack and in decline because ALPA thought they could control us with scope. ALPA, and APA for that matter, are still clinging to this failed policy. When ALPA threw its own members under the bus in the presence of management, well, let's just say management smells the blood in the water.

They've learned nothing from Lorenzo. Nothing.

Before we can fix the whipsaw, we have to fix the union.

www.rjdefense.com

 

[IHateMgmt]

I guess it depends on where you want to be. I think it's all going to be a circus act soon. Most of Delta flying is now being done by Delta Connection pilots. That horse left the barn in 2000 when the Delta MEC, doing business as ALPA, denied our request for a PID.

Because the Delta pilots are in the minority on their own property, they have already sold their bargaining leverage for short term gains. They just don't seem to realize it yet. But if you think those cream puff contracts are coming back someday, in my opinion, they ain't.

The majors carrier contracts with their defined benefit plans, cushy work rules and big pay checks are under attack and in decline because ALPA thought they could control us with scope. ALPA, and APA for that matter, are still clinging to this failed policy. When ALPA threw its own members under the bus in the presence of management, well, let's just say management smells the blood in the water.

They've learned nothing from Lorenzo. Nothing.

Before we can fix the whipsaw, we have to fix the union.

www.rjdefense.com

I think we all can agree that ALPA could use a little fixing up. Here's my issue: RJDC does not seek to fix ALPA.

I've been to their website before and the first thing you see is their "three critical issues." Those issues revolve around growing the percentage of RJ flying at the DIRECT cost of mainline flying. You can't dispute this... its right on your own website.

Now ask yourself, who else is trying to convert mainline to regional flying? Easy answer: Airline Mgmt.

Times have been rough and certainly ALPA could use some help. RJDC is not the answer to this problem. In fact, they are part of the problem... right up there with the likes of good ol' Frank himself.

 

[N2264J]

I've been to their website before and the first thing you see is their "three critical issues." Those issues revolve around growing the percentage of RJ flying at the DIRECT cost of mainline flying. You can't dispute this... its right on your own website.

Negative, that's not what it says. Our point is you cannot control the marketplace with a union contract. Have you noticed? It doesn't work. Combine that with ALPA's duty to the pilots flying these planes for their livelihood and you have the makings of DFR.

Can you imagine if regional members could limit the number of 737s that mainline operates? It's stupid. A market is not just a city pair, it's also a time of day. If the 737 is the most efficient, profitable way of moving people from A to B at 1500 every afternoon, why would you want to hobble your own company by limiting 737s? Now substitute "CRJ" for "737."

United and US Airways had much more restrictive scope than Delta and Delta had far fewer furloughees because more small jets were bringing people from Hooterville into the hub to connect to a mainline plane.

One pilot group flying all the aircraft (Beech 1900s to 777s) under a code is where the pilot bargaining leverage is. Until we figure that out, this profession is toast.

If you only read one thing from the site, make it this:

http://www.rjdefense.com/2003/10_Things_About_Scope.pdf

 

[737 Pylt]

Negative, that's not what it says. Our point is you cannot control the marketplace with a union contract. Have you noticed? It doesn't work. Combine that with ALPA's duty to the pilots flying these planes for their livelihood and you have the makings of DFR.

Nice spin on words.....I guess you don't spend too much time on your own website!

Can you imagine if regional members could limit the number of 737s that mainline operates? It's stupid. A market is not just a city pair, it's also a time of day. If the 737 is the most efficient, profitable way of moving people from A to B at 1500 every afternoon, why would you want to hobble your own company by limiting 737s? Now substitute "CRJ" for "737."

Maybe if the regionals owned that flying that might just work. Until then...ALL flying under the DL code is subject to the DL pilots' PWA! I just don't understand why you idiots can't comprehend that! If you want to fly bigger jets, go right ahead, just sever your ties with ALL DL code flying! Ask the folks at ACA/Indy Air how they did!

United and US Airways had much more restrictive scope than Delta and Delta had far fewer furloughees because more small jets were bringing people from Hooterville into the hub to connect to a mainline plane.

And yet you still comlain that your careers are hurt by scope, the very scope which you and your circle jerk of cadres are trying to eliminate!

One pilot group flying all the aircraft (Beech 1900s to 777s) under a code is where the pilot bargaining leverage is. Until we figure that out, this profession is toast.

If you want a job at a mainline carrier, go out and apply like most of your peers skippy! You can't sue to get a job, much as your group has tried!

If you only read one thing from the site, make it this:

http://www.rjdefense.com/2003/10_Things_About_Scope.pdf

uke:

737