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WSJ article re: Pilot Rest

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EWR_FO

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Nov 6, 2005
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Continental, American Balk at New Rest Rules For International-Flight Crews
By ANDY PASZTOR
March 20, 2007

Continental Airlines Inc. and AMR Corp.'s American Airlines are balking at providing extra rest periods and other special safety measures for pilots who fly their longest international routes, just four months after rival Delta Air Lines Inc. agreed on such steps, industry and government officials say.

The crux of the argument is over the amount of rest necessary for pilots once aircraft arrive overseas. Airlines that keep pilots sitting idle for shorter periods at foreign destinations could enjoy significant labor-cost savings, thereby gaining a competitive edge over rivals. On the other hand, pilot unions and other critics worry the result may be an erosion of safety margins if tired crews have to cope with unusual or emergency situations.

LONG HAUL

• The News: American and Continental are balking at a government effort to increase rest time for cockpit crews on the longest flights.

• The Government's Concern: A shift to longer overseas flights could take a toll on pilots.

• The Airlines' Concern: The rules could reduce efficiency and hinder instead of improve safety.

With U.S. and foreign airlines relying increasingly on extended global routes that require pilots to spend longer-than-normal shifts in the cockpit, the outcome will indicate how U.S. carriers plan to handle pilot-rest issues in coming years. The latest arguments also will show how aggressively the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration intends to deal with fatigue-related hazards potentially affecting crews on so-called ultra-long-range flights.

Continental and American are resisting, among other things, FAA rules for an extra day of rest for pilots at some foreign destinations, according to industry officials. The airlines contend such requirements are unnecessary and may even be counterproductive.

In addition to emphasizing their excellent safety records on long-haul routes, American and Continental contend the FAA is using improper procedures to draft its new requirements and have filed separate petitions requesting formal rule-making. But after some early testy discussions starting in January, continuing negotiations may reach a resolution as early as April, according to these officials. A sore point with both carriers is that the agency wants to retroactively establish enhanced safety rules for existing routes, while last year's negotiations with Delta were concluded around the time Delta began flying the New York-Mumbai, India, run.

An American spokesman confirmed talks with the FAA are under way, adding that "the issue is not just about today's flying but all long-haul flights in the future." A Continental spokeswoman said the carrier "is working with the FAA" to develop rules reflecting its years of experience with ultra-long-range operations.

Current rules typically allow pilots to be scheduled behind the controls of passenger jets for no longer than eight hours in one workday. But some U.S. airlines are pushing to extend that limit, sometimes by 40 minutes or more, even as they tussle with regulators over how long crews should rest between long-range international flights.

Disputes about crew schedules on nonstop flights 16 hours or more -- typically connecting U.S. East Coast or Midwestern cities with destinations in India and China -- highlight the extent of the broader battle in this growing market segment. Such trips require a total of four pilots, so two can leave the cockpit to sleep and then return to relieve the others.

In November, Delta agreed to give its pilots flying from New York to Mumbai up to two full days of rest before returning. The FAA said this set a precedent it intended to apply to other carriers. It also included longer-than-usual mandatory rest periods before leaving the U.S., and an extended rest period at the end of such round trips. The FAA agreed a four-person cockpit crew was adequate, despite the fact that total duty time under some circumstances could exceed 20 consecutive hours.

Peggy Gilligan, an FAA safety official, said "there have been extensive discussions" with Continental and American, and details will be worked out on "a case by case basis." But, she said in an interview last week, "they will have to demonstrate to us how to mitigate the risk."

The latest disagreements also focus on whether the two carriers will follow Delta's lead by assigning two captains -- rather than the single captain and three co-pilots they currently use -- as part of four-pilot crews, industry officials said. The change carries important cost and training consequences. And American wants to avoid spending millions of dollars and taking certain long-range planes out of service in order to install additional berths for flight attendants.

Continental's longest nonstop route is from Newark, N.J., to Hong Kong. It has announced a longer route from Newark to Mumbai starting in late October. The spokeswoman said Continental wants the new rules for both flights to "reflect our six years' experience" on the Hong Kong run.

American, which has been flying from Chicago to New Delhi for less than two years, has told the FAA it should be exempted from some requirements because only about one-sixth of those flights run more than 16 hours.

Write to Andy Pasztor at [email protected]
 
now IIRC on intl flights other than the carribean central america mexico canada and maybe a handful of countries in so. america, doesnt 121 say minimum 36 hr. rest? correct me if im wrong

-paul
 
now IIRC on intl flights other than the carribean central america mexico canada and maybe a handful of countries in so. america, doesnt 121 say minimum 36 hr. rest? correct me if im wrong

-paul

No. The standard layover is normally twenty four hours or less, this trip is ridiculous at less than sixteen.
 
4 man rules say twice the amount of block time within a pairing as compensatory rest when returned to base. 32 hrs block = 72 hrs off at home.
 
This will put an end to the 3day HKG which I think is good but the 5 day is too long. I bet they are negotiating to put it back to a 4 day and have a similar rest period for BOM. I don't commute so it doesn't bother me so much but the 24 hours in base prior to departure (cp said faa wants this) is going cause headaches. Not only do they not want you working prior to a long flight they don't want you commuting in during that period either. If that is true then are we going to get paid something? Per diem? Hotel?
 
The latest disagreements also focus on whether the two carriers will follow Delta's lead by assigning two captains -- rather than the single captain and three co-pilots they currently use -- as part of four-pilot crews, industry officials said. The change carries important cost and training consequences. And American wants to avoid spending millions of dollars and taking certain long-range planes out of service in order to install additional berths for flight attendants.
What extra training would be required to consider us captains in the faa's mind? We are all typed and I personally spend about 40% of my sim time in the left seat. Don't get me wrong, it is best for the pilot group to require more captains, but I think the company will try to do it on the cheap and give us a little more training on taxiing.
 
This will put an end to the 3day HKG which I think is good but the 5 day is too long. I bet they are negotiating to put it back to a 4 day and have a similar rest period for BOM. I don't commute so it doesn't bother me so much but the 24 hours in base prior to departure (cp said faa wants this) is going cause headaches. Not only do they not want you working prior to a long flight they don't want you commuting in during that period either. If that is true then are we going to get paid something? Per diem? Hotel?

There won't be any five days when they change back, it has gone to daily service. Every trip will be four days starting in May, supposedly. I think the CP is full of s$1t, that was an attempt to discourage complaints about the three day.
 
There won't be any five days when they change back, it has gone to daily service. Every trip will be four days starting in May, supposedly. I think the CP is full of s$1t, that was an attempt to discourage complaints about the three day.
could be he's full of it. He mentioned the 24 hour prior deal along with the statement that the faa was going to decide the 3 day versus 4 day issue for us.
 

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