majors?

[livethedream]

is this really a time to go to the majors?
it seems like the age 60 rule will change to 65, won't that cause 5 more years in the right seat?
how is the quality of life? how long do new hires spend on reserve?

 

[AA717driver]

What are your options? Used to be that it was worth going to the majors regardless of how long you sat on reserve as a newhire. Now, most pax carrier CBA's are the same--LCC or "major", it doesn't matter.

Pick one with a domicile you can stand to live in or commute to and try but any major or LCC is better than any regional. JMO. TC

 

[atrdriver]

is this really a time to go to the majors?
it seems like the age 60 rule will change to 65, won't that cause 5 more years in the right seat?
how is the quality of life? how long do new hires spend on reserve?

Is that really a question? Any time is time to go to a major. The sooner you can get on the list the better off you are, unless you are content to sit left seat of an RJ forever. Even if age 65 goes into effect, it won't be for 1.5 to 2 years, and it will most likely be optional at that. Also figure that the US will probably adopt ICAO medical standards once 65 goes into effect, and you will probably have more openings due to people leaving on medicals. Of course it's a good time to go to a major.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Tell that to those people who got hired on at majors in 2001.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I had the same dilemma when I was hired by DAL and World. Fact is that the passenger side of the industry is at it all time low. Could it go lower, yes. Fact is that for the majors to attract the type of pilots and people that they want to staff their companies with, they will have to bring pay and compensation to a level that the cargo companies have. They will fight tooth and nail, but the fact is that it needs to be done. They know this. FDX and UPS have the best contracts bar none. If you look at their pay it still pails in comparison to what DAL, UAL and AMR had pre 9/11. That said it will be fairly attainable in the next few contract cycles.
With that said, I think that the majors are a good place to go. I looked at World and DAL They are similar in todays market. You need to look long term. I did and I see that even if I sit in the right seat for 15 years, DAL is still a better gig under the current CBA. I may be wrong about the pay going up ,but I do not think that it will go lower. If that happens there will be a mass exodus from this industry. Pilots are smart people and they know that they could have a better QOL and pay somewhere else, doing something else.

 

[capt. megadeth]

Pilots are smart people quote]

Hmmmmm.......:erm:

 

[HAL]

Seniority, seniority, seniority. For every month you bypass your chances at a major, others are getting hired and taking spots ahead of where you will end up. If your goal is to go to a major, do it as soon as you can - no exceptions.

Secret Squirrel said: Tell that to those people who got hired on at majors in 2001.

Yes, and what about it? Some got furloughed, some are still flying. This industry is not predictable and no matter where you end up, you run the risk of ending at the bottom of a pile of rubble where your once proud airline stood. Those are the risks of this job. But for those hired in 2001, they still have a 2001 hire date, not a 2007 hire date, and will upgrade sooner, or be able to pick what they want to do in the base/aircraft/seat of their choice. Sitting in the left seat is not the be-all/end-all of your career. Enjoying where you are and what you are doing is.

HAL

 

[crashpad]

Pick one with a domicile you can stand to live in or commute to and try but any major or LCC is better than any regional. JMO. TC

The dynamics of this industry are such that a Regional Senior Captain takes a huge pay cut when he moves to the right seat of any major.
With younger pilots having been hired over the last 15 years, the chance seeing Captain pay before age 50 are practically nil.
Do the math and you'll find the 'Regionals' are already the 'New Majors'!
It's not fair, but let's face it,....we let this happen to ourselves.

 

[HAL]

With younger pilots having been hired over the last 15 years, the chance seeing Captain pay before age 50 are practically nil.

Even though this is a broad (and false) generalization, I'll stand by my message above; Becoming a Captain is not the be-all/end-all of the aviation career. Enjoying where you are and what you're doing is. Patience, patience, patience, and you will get what you want. Being a frustrated, angry, bitter pilot because you're not seniority #1 at a major only means you're in the wrong industry.

HAL

 

[~~~^~~~]

FDX and UPS have the best contracts bar none. If you look at their pay it still pails in comparison to what DAL, UAL and AMR had pre 9/11. That said it will be fairly attainable in the next few contract cycles.

Very insightful. If you look back at pre-deregulation pay packages even FedEx and UPS have failed to maintain pace with inflation. There may never be a return to the salad days, but certainly there is plenty of justification (& ALPA negotiating power) to believe that compensation at the major carriers will improve.

The unrestrained alter ego substitution of small jets for mainline jets and even small jets for other small jet providers could very well have a long lasting effect on pay rates for aircraft in the seat range of the 737/600 and smaller. Effective union representation is essential to make positive changes in pilot wages. ALPA's complete and total failure has been complicated by the fact that now days most alter ego flying is being performed by non ALPA carriers. Right now no answers are apparent... maybe in four or five years after a bloody shake out the operators and pilots who remain in the market can figure out a solution.

Of course all of these small jet pilots are clamoring to get on at a major - so don't expect there to ever be a pilot shortage for the good jobs.

 

[crashpad]

Patience, patience, patience, and you will get what you want. HAL

What's it like flying for Mr. Roarke on Fantasy Island?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Tell that to those people who got hired on at majors in 2001.

Heck, I wish that I had been hired by DAL in 2001 (2002, 03, 04, 05, 06 and hoping for 07) The fact that ALPA completely lost control of small jet flying makes it imperative to get out of the bloody fields of alter ego replacement flying. The Delta pilots pedestal sure got a little tarnished, but from where I sit, that pedestal is shining real pretty right now.

I'm hearing runors of AirTran again thinking of getting a small jet contractor to compete more as a network carrier. I hope if they do that the AirTran pilots will be smart enough to insist on one list to protect their small jets. Lets face it a 717, E170/190 & large CRJ's are within a fraction of a hair of one another operationally and the tie might go to the regional jet with its longer legs....

(as a side point, DAL running RJ's as a defensive move against AirTran might be more effective than we pilots thought. Or this might be AirTran's version of a threat to their pilots in contract negotiations, who knows....)

 

[AA717driver]

Let's establish one rule that has been ignored in the past couple of decades: Until you get above the bottom 10% of any seniority list, you have the distinct possibility of being laid off during a normal downturn in the economy.

It hasn't happened to everyone but you are certainly exposed as a newhire or if you get stuck on the bottom of a stagnant list. Above that 10%, you will be exposed but only to a 9/11-type scenario--that is, the economy on the edge of a recession and a massive blow to the airlines. It COULD happen again, I doubt it will. TC

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Even though this is a broad (and false) generalization, I'll stand by my message above; Becoming a Captain is not the be-all/end-all of the aviation career. Enjoying where you are and what you're doing is. Patience, patience, patience, and you will get what you want. Being a frustrated, angry, bitter pilot because you're not seniority #1 at a major only means you're in the wrong industry.

HAL

You are going to have to make up your mind. Is it get a seniority number ASAP or is it to Enjoy being where you are and what you are doing? Jumping at a seniority number at a Major just because it is a major is not the best decision. And if as you say being a Captain at a major is not all that important, than being a captain at my regional will make me more money than most major FO's out there and I do not have to go back to the bottom of a seniority list.

There are QOL, family, and financial issues which go into a good decision. I know guys who have jumped ship for 10 years trying to get the best job possible and have ended up with nothing. No retirement savings, no seniority, and no life. Talk about somebody pissed off at the aviation industry. I even know a guy who left Fedex for United in 2001. He got that seniority number at a major!!!

 

[HAL]

You are going to have to make up your mind. Is it get a seniority number ASAP or is it to Enjoy being where you are and what you are doing?

I didn't say that getting a seniority number at a major will make you happy. What I'm saying is that to be happy in this industry, you should take the long view, and do what makes you happy in the long run. What I'm saying is more about the people who complain because they won't upgrade as fast at a major as they could at a regional - that is a short sighted viewpoint. If what they want is to work for a major, then go do that! If you enjoy working for the regional, then by all means stay and do that. Just don't complain about how long it will take you to upgrade at the major, and then bypass your chance to go there if that is what you ultimately want.

Jumping at a seniority number at a Major just because it is a major is not the best decision. And if as you say being a Captain at a major is not all that important, than being a captain at my regional will make me more money than most major FO's out there and I do not have to go back to the bottom of a seniority list.

That may be true at your regional, but not at most, and not for long. The majors have come down in payscale, but still pay more than the regionals. In the long run, if it is just money you are after, then the sooner you get to a major, the better. If it is QOL, family, or other choices that make the top of your list, then everyone's choice will be different. Finally, I didn't say being a Captain at a major isn't important. To some people it is. However it shouldn't be the one and only reason to go to a different airline. It should be just part of what you're looking at when you make your career decisions. Again, look at your career as a whole, and do what makes you happiest, remembering that you can't control the world, or this industry. Things happen and even with the best information you can end up at the bottom again at age 58. Enjoy the ride along they way; if you don't, the destination isn't worth the trip.

HAL

 

[mdanno808]

I would much rather retire in the right seat of a widebody, making maxed out FO pay at a Major than in the left seat of an RJ flying out of ORD. Then again, that's just me.

 

[mach zero]

The dynamics of this industry are such that a Regional Senior Captain takes a huge pay cut when he moves to the right seat of any major.
With younger pilots having been hired over the last 15 years, the chance seeing Captain pay before age 50 are practically nil.
Do the math and you'll find the 'Regionals' are already the 'New Majors'!
It's not fair, but let's face it,....we let this happen to ourselves.

Not true...
I made more at SWA my first year than I ever did as a Regional Captain ( I was in the regionals for 9 years). I passed the income of 95% of the Captains at my old regional as a second year F/O. My year 3 F/O pay passed almost everyone there. Bottom Captain pay at SWA (upgrade running 6 years right now) doubles what the Senior 20+ year RJ Captains made where I worked. The Senior Captains here have the potential to triple what the Senior RJ Captains make at my old regional.

 

[HAL]

Just as a comparison here are some pay rates courtesy WillFlyForFood.com

For regional Captains, max pay for largest equipment, and number of years required to reach that pay:

Air Wisconson, $113, 20 years
Am. Eagle, $97, 18 years
Comair, $103, 18 years
Express Jet, $92, 18 years
Pinnacle, $82, 15 years

In contrast, here is the pay for larger (major) airlines. It is FO pay in the smallest equipment at 5 years, and max FO pay for any type.

Alaska, $86, $97
American, $92, $135
Continental, $80, $111
United, $78, $124
Hawaiian, $90, $117
Southwest, $119, $131

By the time a pilot has been with a major for five years, he is essentially equal to what he was making at a regional as a Captain (I doubt many 18 or 20 year regional Captains are jumping to the majors. Most would have had 5 or 6 years with the regional). Even if you decided not to upgrade during your career, you would end up making more at just about any of these major airlines than you would hanging around at a regional. But again, it all comes down to what you want to do with your career. Is it money, or QOL that is most important to you?

HAL