CAL vs XJT

[CAL EWR B737]

I think at the conclusion of contract 08 CAL will have the same or higher pay than SWA. If you add the retirement it will be higher. How much is the SWA "B" fund anyway I forgot?

 

[acbarney]

CAL's pilots have yet to prove that they can go out and negotiate an industry leading contract.

Neither have SWA's

 

[Uniform Shop]

If you think CAL will have higher pay than SWA anytime soon, I have some oceanfront property to sell you in Arizona.

That depends on what equipment you are talking about. I'm sure SWA will have higher pay on the 737 because that's all they have. I don't think you will see any of the airlines match SWA's narrow body pay (I hope I'm wrong) but that doesn't mean you won't make more money at the other airlines.

Our contract is about as bad as it gets and our widebody pay is about the same as a 737 at SWA at max pay. I think it's safe to say we will have "higher pay" than SWA on our next contract.

 

[Double Shot]

CALS contract now is a joke. And most likely you all will all roll over again on your next contract. Even contract 97 is not even on par with what we have here at SWA with a contract that is over 10 years old.
Yall will come up with your excuses as to why that is but 8 to 5 says you will all roll over again.
That being said I hope you all prove me wrong but I doubt it.

And remember we are in contract neg right now. So unless you wait to see what we sign as a whole I will be willing to bet you will be still lacking over all on yours.

 

[puddlejumper101]

I think at the conclusion of contract 08 CAL will have the same or higher pay than SWA. If you add the retirement it will be higher. How much is the SWA "B" fund anyway I forgot?

I would take my profit sharing...and amazing 401K over a promise of a so called pension that might go away. QOL in this industry is everything...ask most SWA guys about their schedule...and what they can do with it. Ask SWA guys how many red eyes they have done in a SWA aircraft. At 40,000 feet a 737 feels the same as any other airplane. Ask SWA guys what it is like to be on a PM trip and how much fun that can turn into (literally). To each their own but unless you have worked here...don't assume anything. I know CAL...was hired there...but took SWA in a heartbeat. Both are good airlines...but if we want to talk about QOL...there really is no comparison. QOL better than SWA? Try FedEx...or maybe UPS (not sure). 16 days off minimum sounds pretty good to me...even with no B fund.

 

[Palomino]

CALS contract now is a joke. And most likely you all will all roll over again on your next contract. Even contract 97 is not even on par with what we have here at SWA with a contract that is over 10 years old.
Yall will come up with your excuses as to why that is but 8 to 5 says you will all roll over again.
That being said I hope you all prove me wrong but I doubt it.

And remember we are in contract neg right now. So unless you wait to see what we sign as a whole I will be willing to bet you will be still lacking over all on yours.

thanks for the seniority bump. that's all the kindness i can pass along to such a snide response.

 

[Uniform Shop]

I would take my profit sharing...and amazing 401K over a promise of a so called pension that might go away.

Just to clarify that a B fund is not a Pension. A B Fund is basically like your "amazing" 7.3% 401K matching except it's 10.5% and goes to 12.75% in July.

 

[CAL EWR B737]

I would take my profit sharing...and amazing 401K over a promise of a so called pension that might go away. QOL in this industry is everything...ask most SWA guys about their schedule...and what they can do with it. Ask SWA guys how many red eyes they have done in a SWA aircraft. At 40,000 feet a 737 feels the same as any other airplane. Ask SWA guys what it is like to be on a PM trip and how much fun that can turn into (literally). To each their own but unless you have worked here...don't assume anything. I know CAL...was hired there...but took SWA in a heartbeat. Both are good airlines...but if we want to talk about QOL...there really is no comparison. QOL better than SWA? Try FedEx...or maybe UPS (not sure). 16 days off minimum sounds pretty good to me...even with no B fund.

So tell me what would a typical 12 year plus CA take home in total compensation and how much into 401K? How many legs a day does the average SWA pilot fly?

How long have you been flying the 737? I have been for eight years and over the last few all I do is one leg long international trips (five plus hours) in the 800/900 and I have really grown to dislike it. On the rare occasion I fly two or three domestic legs I really hate it. What about quality at work?

By the way on the 777 the minimum days off is 17/18 and the top is 21 or 22 days off a month.

To each his own personally I wouldn't like flying for SWA no matter how much they paid. I wish you guys luck in your negotiations if you informational picket or strike I will be there to walk your line.

As far as the comments on this thread about we will cave I don't think so but hey anything is possible today is a different CAL pilot group than In my twenty years at CAL. Even with our POS contract (I agree it stinks) I made significant money (W2) and an additional 26K in my stock options and profit sharing and 20K into my B fund (my own personal schwab account).

 

[BID]

I hate when I have to fly 3 legs, especially the last day! I laugh at that now. In a year and a half I have flown 4 legs, no more than two times, tops That is the way I like it.

I like the flying at CAL, very much. Great aircraft, ACARS, autho throttles, auto-land (all aircraft), VNAV. I like crossing the Gulf on my way to San Jose Costa Rica. I remember once we were pushing back and the flight attendant asked, "we have extra first class meals if you guys want, your choice steak or chicken" I thought this is cool.

Now our contract is awful, just can't argue that one at all. Our quality of life has recently taken a huge hit. This is due to PBS and understaffing. I do have hope things will improve though. I have much faith we will have a great contract. I think many who are joing the ranks feel the same way. The pilot group is changing. I have not been here long, but I can see it. Oh yeah, movement is also really good right now.

SWA, I have so many friends there, I am sure I would of had a blast, but in the end I know I would of been drooling as I taxi past a 787! Oh yeah I do envy your bases!

 

[puddlejumper101]

an airplane is an airplane no matter what. Most of the guys that work at SWA don't work there because of the 737...they work there because of the paint on those 737's. I think that's the difference...if airplane size was the difference then many of us would have chosen other carriers or paths. The Spirit and mood around here make it worthwhile...QOL and the way they treat their people is the difference maker. I am not saying CAL treats their people bad...I just think SWA treats their people really well and it goes beyond $$$. (but that's not bad either)

 

[Captain Overs]

So tell me what would a typical 12 year plus CA take home in total compensation and how much into 401K? How many legs a day does the average SWA pilot fly?

How long have you been flying the 737? I have been for eight years and over the last few all I do is one leg long international trips (five plus hours) in the 800/900 and I have really grown to dislike it. On the rare occasion I fly two or three domestic legs I really hate it. What about quality at work?

By the way on the 777 the minimum days off is 17/18 and the top is 21 or 22 days off a month.

To each his own personally I wouldn't like flying for SWA no matter how much they paid. I wish you guys luck in your negotiations if you informational picket or strike I will be there to walk your line.

As far as the comments on this thread about we will cave I don't think so but hey anything is possible today is a different CAL pilot group than In my twenty years at CAL. Even with our POS contract (I agree it stinks) I made significant money (W2) and an additional 26K in my stock options and profit sharing and 20K into my B fund (my own personal schwab account).

Why don't you ask how tired the 777 guy is after flying his trip as compared to a SWA guy. I bet it doesn't take all the SWA guys days off to recover.

 

[LJDRVR]

I recently made the move from the left seat at Express to the right seat at Continental, here are my thoughts:

At first it was a difficult decision, (I really do love XJT) but within the first 48 hours of ground school the whole overriding sentiment was "Holy crap! how could I have even considered staying?"

While you're at Express, you really feel like you're part of the CAL family, but let me tell you: that parking lot between our two buildings might as well be the grand canyon.

Don't get me wrong, XJT is a great job with fantastic crews, but at the end of the day, your wagon is hitched to our truck, which vehicle would you rather be riding in when the potholes begin?

Do three things:

• Ask yourself, what does Express Jet own?

• Multiply out the pay over the career, don't even use any widebody, just compare the 737 to the Embraer.

• Ask yorself "How many CAL pilots are making the move to XJT?" (The answer is (1).

Let me know what answer you got. (I'm 40, and mine was seven figures more over the course of a career.)

PS- Houston-based 737 FO, less than a month on reserve! Just traded away my SJC-EWR redeye, and traded a run of the mill three day for a four day with a 36 hour layover in my hometown.

 

[kaisersose]

Why don't you ask how tired the 777 guy is after flying his trip as compared to a SWA guy. I bet it doesn't take all the SWA guys days off to recover.

The only guys that have a problem with the 777 are the ones that can't sleep on a plane. We are at a point where almost all the lineholders in the ewr777fo base can hold 756 ca. That should tell you about how hard it is versus the domestic gig. I can tell you that I feel less tired on this equipment than I did on the 73. If I sleep 6 hours out of a 15 hour flight, manage my 24hr layover and then sleep 6 more on the way home I have very little if any recovery time when home. I used to have 14 -16 hour days on the 737 from time to time and never got to sleep for half of it and only got paid for half of it. Now I sleep for almost half my duty period and get paid for the whole thing (snores and farts included).

ks

 

[minrest]

What is it with the SWA guys that enjoy coming on these boards and sh****** on all the other airlines? We all know that SWA is a great company with great pay and benefits. Consider yourself very fortunate to be there.

I happen to work for CAL which (personal opininion) I also think is a great company. Great pay? Hardly. Will I personally be involved in increasing that pay? You bet.

MOST pilots I have met from SWA are gracious people; for the few that ride this board such as those in this thread that are have some sort of personal problem that they feel must be aired on the forum, please just worry about yourself and your upcoming contract and let us worry about ours.

For those thinking of coming to CAL, I recommend it. It's a fun place with great crews, great destinations, and a lot of opportunity.

 

[bizicmo]

• Ask yorself "How many CAL pilots are making the move to XJT?" (The answer is (1).

Am I reading this right one CAL pilot made a move to XJT? Could you elaborate on the circumstances?

 

[EWR_FO]

Why don't you ask how tired the 777 guy is after flying his trip as compared to a SWA guy. I bet it doesn't take all the SWA guys days off to recover.

I am a lot less tired after a 777 trip than I ever was after a 767 trip. Spending half the flight in a bunk does wonders. If you time it right, you are literally back on east coast time when you land.

 

[Britpilot]

[/list]Am I reading this right one CAL pilot made a move to XJT? Could you elaborate on the circumstances?

He took early retirement and still wanted to fly, so now he is an FO at Express in IAH.

 

[bizicmo]

He took early retirement and still wanted to fly, so now he is an FO at Express in IAH.

That's interesting!

 

[check6]

This is a good topic. There are a few regionals out there with long upgrade times just because the Captains get too cozy.

 

[Heavy Set]

I would take my profit sharing...and amazing 401K over a promise of a so called pension that might go away. QOL in this industry is everything...ask most SWA guys about their schedule...and what they can do with it. Ask SWA guys how many red eyes they have done in a SWA aircraft. At 40,000 feet a 737 feels the same as any other airplane. Ask SWA guys what it is like to be on a PM trip and how much fun that can turn into (literally). To each their own but unless you have worked here...don't assume anything. I know CAL...was hired there...but took SWA in a heartbeat. Both are good airlines...but if we want to talk about QOL...there really is no comparison. QOL better than SWA? Try FedEx...or maybe UPS (not sure). 16 days off minimum sounds pretty good to me...even with no B fund.

Yes, but you work like dogs on the road, with 5-6 legs a day. It probably takes a few days to recover from being flogged. I would much rather fly 1-2 legs a day and get some sleep on the road. It makes home life better all around, and you don't beat the wife and kiss the dog when you come home dazed and confused.

 

[Heavy Set]

an airplane is an airplane no matter what. Most of the guys that work at SWA don't work there because of the 737...they work there because of the paint on those 737's. I think that's the difference...if airplane size was the difference then many of us would have chosen other carriers or paths. The Spirit and mood around here make it worthwhile...QOL and the way they treat their people is the difference maker. I am not saying CAL treats their people bad...I just think SWA treats their people really well and it goes beyond $$$. (but that's not bad either)

In 5 years you will be asking yourself "How many more Ontario legs to Sacramento or Detroit legs to St Louis before I throw up?" But wait, just before you do that, you had better hurry up and get ready for your Spokane turn... At least you have the 1 2 3 rule. Drink your sorrows away. Someday you will be wishing for a nice long layover somewhere tropical or atleast interesting (Europe), and instead you will look down and see another Lubbock. But, it may be a blast there! Ooops, it actually read Norfolk, I mean Albany. Yippy.

 

[Britpilot]

In 5 years you will be asking yourself "How many more Ontario legs to Sacramento or Detroit legs to St Louis before I throw up?" But wait, just before you do that, you had better hurry up and get ready for your Spokane turn... At least you have the 1 2 3 rule. Drink your sorrows away. Someday you will be wishing for a nice long layover somewhere tropical or atleast interesting (Europe), and instead you will look down and see another Lubbock. But, it may be a blast there! Ooops, it actually read Norfolk, I mean Albany. Yippy.

Not everybody wants to fly international. I've done it and the hassle with customs and immergration was a pain. I much prefer the domestic flying. So it's each to their own and no, I don't wish I was on a tropical layover or in Europe, but that's just me.

 

[Patriot328]

Not everybody wants to fly international. I've done it and the hassle with customs and immergration was a pain.

What hassle, exactly?

 

[Ralph Wiggums]

Yes, but you work like dogs on the road, with 5-6 legs a day. It probably takes a few days to recover from being flogged. I would much rather fly 1-2 legs a day and get some sleep on the road. It makes home life better all around, and you don't beat the wife and kiss the dog when you come home dazed and confused.

It's pretty obvious that you don't know what a typical SWA schedule looks like. Here is a look at my last 8 trips at SWA:

Avg block flown per day- 6:24
Avg duty day- 8:22
Avg overnight- 15:58
Avg legs flown per day- 2.83
Max number of nights away from home in a row- 2
Number of 4-leg days- 4
Number of 5-or-more leg days- 0

Between Dec 1 and scheduled thru March 31:

Number of weekend days worked- 7
Number of weekend days off- 28
Days off in Dec- 18
Days off in Jan- 18
Days off in Feb- Scheduled 16, which I have increased to 19
Days off in March- 16 (on reserve by choice...3 on, 4 off, all weekends off)

I used some of those days off to pick up extra flying, which is paid at second year rate.

Did I mention I'm still on probation? Year two pay starts soon, which will be an easy $83K, plus per diem, plus 401(k) match, plus profit sharing, plus any extra flying I pick up.

I've flown regional, fractional, and now SWA. SWA is light years above the other two jobs. I'm glad the CAL guys like their jobs. I hope everybody likes his job. I know I like mine.

 

[BigShotXJTdrvr]

You can only make decisions based on current facts... facts can change quickly.

Let's say you have two curtains that are open just a bit so you can see a glimpse of what's behind them. Behind one you can see what looks like a big pot of gold and behind the other it looks like a pot of silver, but you can't really tell how big it is. The CAL career is the pot of gold and XJT career is the pot of silver. From what you can see through the curtain, you think one appears to be much more valuable than the other. But what if I told you the pot of silver might be 50 or 100 times the size of the pot of gold, but you just can't tell how big it is right now? Which one would you really want if I told you that? You know which one appears to be worth more, but how do you really know?

It's funny to me that people make such statements about the value of a career at one company vs. another as if the current facts will be static forever. XJT will only ever operate RJs forever? OK, maybe. XJT will only ever operate and derive its income in the United States/Canada/Mexico forever? OK, maybe. XJT will only ever have a max captain salary of $100k? OK, maybe. Only opportunity will only ever be this or that... NO WAY.

I would say that the kinds of opportunites at CAL are far more known and understood than at XJT. But I would also say the capability for insane kinds of growth and opportunity are far greater at XJT (we're sort of like the small-cap stock that could implode or explode, CAL is relatively less volatile). One thing I love about our management is they think far outside the box, and lots of us guys who are staying are looking forward to following them toward a more creative and variable airline career--right now I have 3 different flying jobs to choose from at one company. I guarantee you more will follow, and I am interested to see what and where those might be.

 

[nimtz]

I would say that the kinds of opportunites at CAL are far more known and understood than at XJT. But I would also say the capability for insane kinds of growth and opportunity are far greater at XJT (we're sort of like the small-cap stock that could implode or explode, CAL is relatively less volatile). One thing I love about our management is they think far outside the box, and lots of us guys who are staying are looking forward to following them toward a more creative and variable airline career--right now I have 3 different flying jobs to choose from at one company. I guarantee you more will follow, and I am interested to see what and where those might be.

We are talking about a career where it is exteremely difficult to transfer experience/skills to paycheck at the next job. This ain't day trading of pets.com.
Sorry but I'd rather bet on the Washington Generals then a regional airline's long term viability...

 

[BigShotXJTdrvr]

We are talking about a career where it is exteremely difficult to transfer experience/skills to paycheck at the next job. This ain't day trading of pets.com.
Sorry but I'd rather bet on the Washington Generals then a regional airline's long term viability...

That's my whole point. Everybody keeps calling us a regional airline. That's only the main piece of the pie right now, and is likely to be a very poor description of our businesses in the not too distant future. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if the next time our Capacity Purchase Agreement with CAL comes up for renegotiation we're the ones who tell CAL we're discontinuing x% of our services with you because we don't make enough profit with your crappy CPA and, please excuse us, because we have bigger fish to fry. Here are the numbers for a few street-whore bottom feeder airlines you may want to call to replace us. Keep up the "Flying to Win." Wish you the best of luck with them.

 

[Alchemy]

[/list]Am I reading this right one CAL pilot made a move to XJT? Could you elaborate on the circumstances?

Don't forget XJT's IAH chief pilot....CAL 737 FO "on loan" to XJT.

 

[tie1on]

just remember your history about the regional airlines thinking too big. midway and others, go ahead and cancel a higher percet of flying with cal and watch your career there change drastically. remember how your company started. dont bite the hand that feeds you. you may not have any food next time....

 

[Superpilot92]

just remember your history about the regional airlines thinking too big. midway and others, go ahead and cancel a higher percet of flying with cal and watch your career there change drastically. remember how your company started. dont bite the hand that feeds you. you may not have any food next time....

I am pretty sure no one here at XJT canceled any flying with CAL.