av8tor4239
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If you only read the MAJORS board PLEASE read this....
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I don't get the big deal. At pdt we had to have brand new FA sit in the jumpseat for 2 legs. I would brief them on what to do and that was it. Go back to the regional board and I will give you some cheese for your wine.
av8tor4239
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bravodude,
What business does a ramper have in the jumpseat during a flight.. Why does the ramper need to know how the procedures in the memo are done. There are ways to teach the rampers what they need to know to complete their duties without putting them in the jumpseat (simulators, pushback in grounded airplanes, classroom etc)
Senerio:
Thunderstom, night, moderate turbulence, full load of PAX, 13th hour of being on duty, last turn of a 4 day trip, approach to CAT 1 minimums, you are about 50 miles out and the engine catches fire. You run your checklist and are setting up for the approach.. Over the marker you are being pelted by HEAVY rain.... you drop the gear and the Ramper in the Jumpseat SCREAMS what was that and begins to cry out of fear for his/her life...... Then just as you are getting ready to kick of the auto-pilot, the ramper VOMITS all over the controls, all over you, and all over instruments... PROJECTILE VOMIT.... you execute missed approach because the distraction from the chunks of the Quiznos sub on your PFD caused you to go full deflection off the localizer... Now you are flying right into a blotch of red orange crap on the radar screen.. but you second guess yourself becasuse that red orange blotch might actually be part of the half digested tomato from the rampers puke stuck to your MFD....
Get the picture?
What business does a ramper have in the jumpseat during a flight.. Why does the ramper need to know how the procedures in the memo are done. There are ways to teach the rampers what they need to know to complete their duties without putting them in the jumpseat (simulators, pushback in grounded airplanes, classroom etc)
Senerio:
Thunderstom, night, moderate turbulence, full load of PAX, 13th hour of being on duty, last turn of a 4 day trip, approach to CAT 1 minimums, you are about 50 miles out and the engine catches fire. You run your checklist and are setting up for the approach.. Over the marker you are being pelted by HEAVY rain.... you drop the gear and the Ramper in the Jumpseat SCREAMS what was that and begins to cry out of fear for his/her life...... Then just as you are getting ready to kick of the auto-pilot, the ramper VOMITS all over the controls, all over you, and all over instruments... PROJECTILE VOMIT.... you execute missed approach because the distraction from the chunks of the Quiznos sub on your PFD caused you to go full deflection off the localizer... Now you are flying right into a blotch of red orange crap on the radar screen.. but you second guess yourself becasuse that red orange blotch might actually be part of the half digested tomato from the rampers puke stuck to your MFD....
Get the picture?
SennaP1
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While I agree the jumpseat is a pilot privelege (with the occasional Fred the Fed).
Reading over your scenario, seems to me you are a glass half empty kind of fellow. Yeah all that could happen, BUT I could also fall down the stairs walking to my car or get electrocuted vacuuming the house.
av8tor4239
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FNG_that's me
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Even a remote threat decreases the margin of safety with which we operate. Nothing that increases risk should be tolerated. This has legitimate CRM issues and will likely bring down the level of safety in the cockpit.
svcta
"Kids these days"-AAflyer
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Where I used to work we trained this in the sim. It's no big deal.
Occam's Razor
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Where's the fire?
I welcome my fellow employees into the cockpit! The more they understand about the tempo of our jobs and the myriad of decisions compressed into short periods...the better for us!
A 60-second brief on staying quiet and out-of-the-way should do the trick. If it motiviates them and leads to more appreciation of our jobs, I'm all for it.
I think it also enhances the big picture that helps employees define their role in the airline "ballet". A ramper seeing how difficult it is to see the wingtips during taxi-in might take his wing-walker job a little more seriously. A tug driver feeling the jerky play in the tow bar when the guy pushing you back isn't smooth might spread the word...or make him focus on being smooth himself. Shoot, I'd be happy if they just witnessed the hassle of getting through Metering and Ground during a hectic hub push! Then they'll understand we're not intentionally trying to induce hypothermia by making them wait while we get a push clearance!
Where's the downside here?
I welcome my fellow employees into the cockpit! The more they understand about the tempo of our jobs and the myriad of decisions compressed into short periods...the better for us!
A 60-second brief on staying quiet and out-of-the-way should do the trick. If it motiviates them and leads to more appreciation of our jobs, I'm all for it.
I think it also enhances the big picture that helps employees define their role in the airline "ballet". A ramper seeing how difficult it is to see the wingtips during taxi-in might take his wing-walker job a little more seriously. A tug driver feeling the jerky play in the tow bar when the guy pushing you back isn't smooth might spread the word...or make him focus on being smooth himself. Shoot, I'd be happy if they just witnessed the hassle of getting through Metering and Ground during a hectic hub push! Then they'll understand we're not intentionally trying to induce hypothermia by making them wait while we get a push clearance!
Where's the downside here?
That would be like saying what bussiness does a FA have in the JS. They all have the same bussiness....to find out what you go thru so they can understand what you have to face day in and day out. If they understand what you go thru maybee they will change their thinking about us overpaid and underworked pilots. SW has a program where pilots work as rampagents for a day and alot of pilots come to understand what its like to work on the ramp and end having more respect for the fellow employees.
capt. megadeth
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Victor120
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Sounds like a reasonable program to me. The more each employee gets the 'big picture', the more likely they are to function more effectively in their work environment. I see no need to freak out and try to rally a lynch mob against such a program on this forum. I think it's pretty irresponsible to post program details on a public forum.
IronCityBlue
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over easy flight deck access
I understand what you're saying and agree with a lot of it in spirit. But whatever miniscuile gain in tug drivers being more gentle on the brakes we get out of this, we will lose immeasureably more. This is or soon will be an ursurping of the pilot jumpseat for pilots. Once everyone rides on it, all will feel its even more unfair that we get to ride it and they don't, on their airline and on others. Airlines will then begin to dole out flight deck jumpseats to all employees, based on seniority. Bad idea.
As if that's not bad enough, it will facilitate would be plane nappers ability to not only get hold of a plane, but to do so in a coordinated fasion. Some airlines already allow FA's to ride in the flight deck on a "one time" observation flight that is never tracked (hint, hint, its an unofficial commuters benefit, but sssshhh don't tell, cause we're all equal, afterall) and is permitted regardless of the availability of open seats. While offline CASS pilots have to get checked, double checked and verified, these FA's simply notify the gate of their flight deck "status" and proceed, showing a single ID, if that. Think how easy it is to get 10 planes at once with a small number of insiders who only had to have a clean background check and go through a 3 week training course. Many other employee groups don't even go through any type of security other than self badge swiping. Not a good idea. This needs to stop.
The idea that others will see what we do and respect us for it is false as well. 90% of what they see is either transparent to them, or they focus on the idle portion during cruise. If we got respect out of this, maybe we should allow paying passengers to ride as well (after they go through a background check that is) then the public would be on our side for higher pay and benefits, rigs, retirement and work rules, right? Not going to happen.
We fought hard for the jumpseat, and its access is one of the most vulnerable security points in existance. Allowing everyone to ride just to get to experience the cool factor of what we do is severly misguided.
I understand what you're saying and agree with a lot of it in spirit. But whatever miniscuile gain in tug drivers being more gentle on the brakes we get out of this, we will lose immeasureably more. This is or soon will be an ursurping of the pilot jumpseat for pilots. Once everyone rides on it, all will feel its even more unfair that we get to ride it and they don't, on their airline and on others. Airlines will then begin to dole out flight deck jumpseats to all employees, based on seniority. Bad idea.
As if that's not bad enough, it will facilitate would be plane nappers ability to not only get hold of a plane, but to do so in a coordinated fasion. Some airlines already allow FA's to ride in the flight deck on a "one time" observation flight that is never tracked (hint, hint, its an unofficial commuters benefit, but sssshhh don't tell, cause we're all equal, afterall) and is permitted regardless of the availability of open seats. While offline CASS pilots have to get checked, double checked and verified, these FA's simply notify the gate of their flight deck "status" and proceed, showing a single ID, if that. Think how easy it is to get 10 planes at once with a small number of insiders who only had to have a clean background check and go through a 3 week training course. Many other employee groups don't even go through any type of security other than self badge swiping. Not a good idea. This needs to stop.
The idea that others will see what we do and respect us for it is false as well. 90% of what they see is either transparent to them, or they focus on the idle portion during cruise. If we got respect out of this, maybe we should allow paying passengers to ride as well (after they go through a background check that is) then the public would be on our side for higher pay and benefits, rigs, retirement and work rules, right? Not going to happen.
We fought hard for the jumpseat, and its access is one of the most vulnerable security points in existance. Allowing everyone to ride just to get to experience the cool factor of what we do is severly misguided.
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capt. megadeth
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It became one after 19 psychos killed over 3000 people.
Whine Lover
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SKYMASTER
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Didn't a disgruntled ramper shoot and kill both pilots on a PSA flight in California years ago?
Regardless, I'm surprised FAA and Homeland Security signed off on this. Also, aside from security there are legitimate safety concerns-needless to say. These are non-flight certificated employees.
Regardless, I'm surprised FAA and Homeland Security signed off on this. Also, aside from security there are legitimate safety concerns-needless to say. These are non-flight certificated employees.
Didn't a disgruntled ramper shoot and kill both pilots on a PSA flight in California years ago?
Yes, but a disgruntled or unbalanced employee can come in any form. The fact an employee is a ramper doesn't necessarily increase the security risk. In addition to a host of eligibles, mechanics and flight attendants have access to the flight deck. No matter what we do with the 'access' portion, the flight attendant must occupy the flight deck when one of the pilots needs to use the rest room. There goes the whole security argument...until we start resorting to cockpit 'honey buckets'...
'It became one after 19 psychos killed over 3000 people.'
Really?? I guess I don't follow how this relates specifically to rampers sitting in the flight deck. Again, does the ramper title somehow increase the risk of being a psycho? Are we saying the background screening of crew members and mechanics is that much better? Fail-safe? Let's not kid ourselves, our crack TSA troops and the 'safeguards' and procedures currently in place are a joke. If anyone truly wanted access to a flight deck, it wouldn't take too much imagination or effort to get it.
D1
Yes, but a disgruntled or unbalanced employee can come in any form. The fact an employee is a ramper doesn't necessarily increase the security risk. In addition to a host of eligibles, mechanics and flight attendants have access to the flight deck. No matter what we do with the 'access' portion, the flight attendant must occupy the flight deck when one of the pilots needs to use the rest room. There goes the whole security argument...until we start resorting to cockpit 'honey buckets'...
'It became one after 19 psychos killed over 3000 people.'
Really?? I guess I don't follow how this relates specifically to rampers sitting in the flight deck. Again, does the ramper title somehow increase the risk of being a psycho? Are we saying the background screening of crew members and mechanics is that much better? Fail-safe? Let's not kid ourselves, our crack TSA troops and the 'safeguards' and procedures currently in place are a joke. If anyone truly wanted access to a flight deck, it wouldn't take too much imagination or effort to get it.
D1
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capt. megadeth
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Desert....My thought process is this...it's a lot easier to get a job as a ramper than a mechanic or pilot. You don't have to go through any schooling to be qualified. In any case, the more people you give cockpit access to, the more accessible the cockpit is to terrorists. I could care less who gets to sit up front before 9-11.
Captain Overs
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I'm sure the terrorists are surfing flightinfo to get ideas on attacks. Get real.
Megadeath, I understand your argument, however your response fails to address the most critical element: flight attendants. How hard is it to get a job as a flight attendant? How much schooling?...2 weeks? (Not that schooling prevented 19 terrorists from successfully carrying out an attack).
Unlike the freight biz, the FA has to occupy the flight deck every time one of the front end crew needs to 'pay a visit'...with the crash axe now conveniently within arms reach. Good thing TSA takes away our finger nail clippers. Even if the FA has the best of intentions, anyone who has ever traveled on a plane knows there is a moment where the door is open...
I fully agree that decressing the access will lower the probability of a successful attempt, but again, until they install lavs in cockpits, the single biggest vulnerability will continue to exist.
Again, point well taken, but much like a cheap combo lock on a brief case, it only serves to keep the honest people out.
D1
Unlike the freight biz, the FA has to occupy the flight deck every time one of the front end crew needs to 'pay a visit'...with the crash axe now conveniently within arms reach. Good thing TSA takes away our finger nail clippers. Even if the FA has the best of intentions, anyone who has ever traveled on a plane knows there is a moment where the door is open...
I fully agree that decressing the access will lower the probability of a successful attempt, but again, until they install lavs in cockpits, the single biggest vulnerability will continue to exist.
Again, point well taken, but much like a cheap combo lock on a brief case, it only serves to keep the honest people out.
D1
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capt. megadeth
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av8tor4239
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Just seems like there are many other ways to "TRAIN" the rampers without decreasing the margin of safety on the flight deck
That may be true, but I have to fall back on my own experience starting out as a young mechanic. Like many young folks, I would 'go through the motions', day to day, while fixing airplanes. That went on until the day I sat in the cockpit and witnessed things from the operations perspective. It was never the same after that; I never settled for 'good enough' again.
It's hard to replace first-hand experience like that. Again, I feel strongly that exposing work groups to the realities and challenges of other work groups makes for a much better and more cohesive operation.
JMHO.
D1
That may be true, but I have to fall back on my own experience starting out as a young mechanic. Like many young folks, I would 'go through the motions', day to day, while fixing airplanes. That went on until the day I sat in the cockpit and witnessed things from the operations perspective. It was never the same after that; I never settled for 'good enough' again.
It's hard to replace first-hand experience like that. Again, I feel strongly that exposing work groups to the realities and challenges of other work groups makes for a much better and more cohesive operation.
JMHO.
D1
capt. megadeth
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Yup, and I'm sure you never thought 9-11 would happen. Have fun in la la land.....you can be the next one going "whoa, didn't see that coming".
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