Age-60 Decision Near

[Johnlp3]

January 22, 2007
Age-60 Decision Near
By Russ Niles, Contributing Editor

FocusFAA, the FAA’s internal newsletter, says the online publication of the report of a committee looking at the contentious mandatory retirement of airline pilots at age 60 means FAA Administrator Marion Blakey is close to making a decision. And if we're reading between the lines correctly, it would appear Blakey is prepared to fall in line with other members of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) and allow pilots to keep flying until age 65 as long as there's another pilot younger than 60 in the cockpit with them. However, the newsletter says Blakey might need some legislative help to shield the government from a rash of lawsuits that could result from the move. The committee, which considered 18,000 comments from 5,500 people, recommended that the rule not be applied retroactively, meaning those who reach 60 before it goes into effect will not be allowed to get their jobs back. The newsletter says that if Blakey lacks the clout, "federal legislation might be required to protect companies and unions from lawsuits that might arise if pilots older than 60 claim age discrimination or other employment issues." There was no speculation when Blakey might make her move.​

 

[AA717driver]

There was no speculation when Blakey might make her move.[/INDENT]

My suggestion is Sept. 20, 2018... TC

 

[I Hate Freight]

Age 60 is as good as gone boys. Lets all get used to it and start planning accordingly.

 

[AA717driver]

Age 60 is as good as gone boys. Lets all get used to it and start planning accordingly.

Bite your tongue! Now this thread will end up 14 pages long with the last 12 being RJ guys and 58 year old USAir guys pi$$ing on each other's shoes... TC

 

[I Hate Freight]

I was hoping to avoid that with my post. That's why I didn't say anything pro or con, just the facts... that age 60 is as good as gone... and it is! Personaly, when they do raise it I hope it's after 2/28/2009. That date has nothing to do with me, it's when a certain person who needs to leave this profession turns 60.

IHF

 

[airbus_jas]

This is nothing new. Just a re-hashing of last weeks news about Blakely. By the way "18000 comments from 5500 parties" shows a stuffing of the ballot box to the tune of 3.5 comments per "party".

Some of the "partys" I saw on the comment web site, were posting a comment every day. I guess Marion noticed this?

 

[Dizel8]

"Proponents note that a pilot shortfall is pending and would be exacerbated by the Age 60 rule, according to some in industry."

Shortage of pilots = payraise, sounds good to me!

"An overriding concern is the legal status of retired pilots who would seek reinstatement if the maximum age is raised to 65. The rulemaking committee's recommendation to the administrator is that any change to the Age 60 rule should be non-grandfathered. If the administrator does not have the legal authority, then federal legislation might be required to protect companies and unions from lawsuits that might arise if pilots older than 60 claim age discrimination or other employment issues."

You can bet there will be many lawsuits!

 

[nwaredtail]

After the 60 plus year old Captains initial brief, you know, the "let's do it by the book, etc stuff" my reply will be blunt.

"The first time I see you fall asleep or nap, The FAA and the chief pilot will be getting a call. Let's have a fun trip."

should be a blast

 

[Phaedrus]

Shortage of pilots = payraise, sounds good to me!

Kit Darby rules!

 

[Flybynite]

After the 60 plus year old Captains initial brief, you know, the "let's do it by the book, etc stuff" my reply will be blunt.

"The first time I see you fall asleep or nap, The FAA and the chief pilot will be getting a call. Let's have a fun trip."

should be a blast

Don't bother with the chief pilot, he would already be notified as I had you replaced. So how many times do you think you would pull this stunt?

 

[1st Overnite]

Quote:
Originally Posted by nwaredtail
After the 60 plus year old Captains initial brief, you know, the "let's do it by the book, etc stuff" my reply will be blunt.

"The first time I see you fall asleep or nap, The FAA and the chief pilot will be getting a call. Let's have a fun trip."

should be a blast

Don't bother with the chief pilot, he would already be notified as I had you replaced. So how many times do you think you would pull this stunt?

What's wrong with asking this? Old people sleep a lot. Stop by any senior home and you'll see half of them are asleep. Plus, a senior home will resemble a flight line once this rule gets changed.

 

[m80drvr]

Don't bother with the chief pilot, he would already be notified as I had you replaced. So how many times do you think you would pull this stunt?

Replacing a pilot for quoting FAA rules and company policy. I suspect it would be YOU dancing around the chief pilot's office not the FO. Nice try though.

 

[pilotyip]

Never sleep in the cockpit, how do both pilots stay awake during the approach?

 

[Flybynite]

Replacing a pilot for quoting FAA rules and company policy. I suspect it would be YOU dancing around the chief pilot's office not the FO. Nice try though.

First day making a statement like that? Walk in with that attitude and attempt to create a hostile environment in the cockpit doesn't lead me to believe their is any chance of crew coordination, yes you would be replaced.

I suspect YOU would be wrong.

 

[Spur]

Never sleep in the cockpit, how do both pilots stay awake during the approach?

Just take a nap on the john in back, while the smart mouth FO sucks the hose for 45 mins.

"And if I come back and your mask ain't on..."

 

[1st Overnite]

5 years from now the whining minority will complain that they are being "forced" out at 65.

 

[Big Duke Six]

5 years from now the whining minority will complain that they are being "forced" out at 65.

Right. Yeah, we're all going to want to work till we're 70. Thanks to idiots like you, we'll probably have to.

 

[pilotyip]

Yea that is the way lets go for age 70, I am getting too close to 65

 

[CF34-3B1]

I can see it now:

Capt: "Before Start Checklist."
FO: "Geritol."
Capt: "Checked"
FO: "Depends Undergarments."
Capt: "Checked. Oh wait. Damn, not again. Better get MX up here."

 

[RollinOnMy22sYo]

Gives a whole new meaning to SHlT HOT PILOT!

 

[Fliteidol]

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2007/01/16/211531/us-pilot-retirement-debate-stalls-at-60.html

 

[1st Overnite]

Right. Yeah, we're all going to want to work till we're 70. Thanks to idiots like you, we'll probably have to.

You can work to 70, I'm out no later than 60.

 

[kwick]

There's no medical evidence not to increase the age to 65, according to the U.S. Aerospace Medical Assoc., so it's really all about choice, as it should be. Those that profess that it is a safety issue don't seem to understand that this is the new international standard. If it was unsafe do you think the U.S. airlines would even consider code-sharing with airlines that have pilots over sixty? How about the thousands of corporate jets, Gulfstreams to BBjs that operate everyday safely with pilots over sixty. How is that really any different? 80 to 90% of airline pilots are probably for this rule change. It's the co-pilots and regional pilots that are against the change based soley on economic and career advancement reasons. Hey, if this rule goes through, I hope that all those pilots who believe it is a safety issue will quit their current airline jobs and on the basis of their safety argument, move to Columbia, Pakistan,or France, countries that share your views on airline safety.

 

[XJTAv8r]

80 to 90% of airline pilots are probably for this rule change.

That may be right for the age 55+ pilots, but nowhere close to accurate for the airline pilot population.

It's the co-pilots and regional pilots that are against the change based soley on economic and career advancement reasons.

So the pro-change crowd (mostly those nearing retirement) aren't interested in 5 extra years of time at the top pay scales at the expense of their junior/younger brothers??

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

Now this thread will end up 14 pages long with the last 12 being RJ guys and 58 year old USAir guys pi$$ing on each other's shoes... TC

Yeah that'll be a bad day at the Regionals. I can't wait to read their comments. Let the games begin! LMAO.

 

[thor2j]

There's no medical evidence not to increase the age to 65, according to the U.S. Aerospace Medical Assoc., so it's really all about choice, as it should be. Those that profess that it is a safety issue don't seem to understand that this is the new international standard. If it was unsafe do you think the U.S. airlines would even consider code-sharing with airlines that have pilots over sixty? How about the thousands of corporate jets, Gulfstreams to BBjs that operate everyday safely with pilots over sixty. How is that really any different? 80 to 90% of airline pilots are probably for this rule change. It's the co-pilots and regional pilots that are against the change based soley on economic and career advancement reasons. Hey, if this rule goes through, I hope that all those pilots who believe it is a safety issue will quit their current airline jobs and on the basis of their safety argument, move to Columbia, Pakistan,or France, countries that share your views on airline safety.

This whole thing is solely economic both ways, lets not kid ourselves. 65 is still a mandatory age and you are not going out on your own terms. So either claim you should be able to retire when you want to, no age, or leave it at 60. You can't have it both ways.

 

[xjlifer]

This whole thing is solely economic both ways, lets not kid ourselves.

Bingo...that sums it up pretty well.

 

[Andy]

80 to 90% of airline pilots are probably for this rule change.

I don't know where you pulled out that number, but polling results from 2005 indicate that the majority of ALPA members oppose a change in the age. Even if 100% of non-ALPA members wanted a change, the number would likely not be as high as 80%.

Here's Woerth's testimony on the poll (note that furloughees were excluded):

Since September 2004, when we began this initiative, our members have considered the issue from many angles, weighed the evidence, and expressed their views on the Age 60 Rule candidly and forthrightly. The assessment of ALPA members’ views is based on two studies with identical questionnaires. The first was a telephone poll conducted from March 30 through April 4. The second was a web-based survey conducted from April 4 through April 29, 2005. Taken together, the telephone poll data and the two sets of demographically stratified web survey data provide extremely accurate results, with a raw sample margin of error of less than 1% and less than 0.5% with sample stratification. We specifically excluded polling our roughly 5,000 furloughed pilots, who would presumably be the strongest supporters of keeping the rule in place.
The results of the survey show that a majority of ALPA pilots favor maintaining the Age 60 Rule. Consider the following statistics from the survey:
· When asked in a straight-forward yes or no format, “Do you favor changing the FAA Age 60 Rule?” 56% of ALPA pilots support maintaining the current rule; 42% want it to change.

· When we asked pilots specifically about changing the rule to age 65, support for maintaining the current rule rose to 58% and support for change dropped to 39%.

· The more specific we got, the fewer pilots supported change. When given a series of options and asked which they would most support, 54% support the current rule, while only 10% support increasing the age limit to 62, and only 22% support increasing it to 65. Further, fewer than 10% support the option of changing the rule to one that measures physical ability and health on an individual basis, regardless of age. And, fewer than 5% support increasing the age limit to higher than age 65 (2%) or lifting the age limit completely (3%).
Several collateral findings indicate that the majority who oppose a change in the Age 60 Rule could grow even larger—into the low-to-mid-60% range or higher—depending on the specifics of any requirements and/or restrictions that might be proposed. We asked pilots whether they support additional operational and/or medical requirements if the rule is changed. Only 29% support additional medical exams, a mere 23% support more line/simulator checks, and only 22% support additional operational restrictions if the age 60 regulation is changed.

 

[Andy]

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2007/01/16/211531/us-pilot-retirement-debate-stalls-at-60.html

I always find flightglobal to be very slow. Here's a copy/paste of the entire article:

US pilot retirement debate stalls at 60
By David Learmount

FAA finally poised to decide in face of divided opinion

The US air transport pilot (ATP) upper age limit of 60 seems unlikely to change for up to five years if Federal Aviation Administration head Marion Blakey takes the advice of an Aviation Rulemaking Committee (ARC) report. Blakey was looking for a recommendation from the ARC on whether to harmonise with the recent hike in the International Civil Aviation Organisation standard maximum pilot age from 60 to 65, but has been presented with the opposite opinions of two divided camps within the committee.
Blakey says she will make a decision within "weeks". In the USA ATPs must retire at 60, no matter whether they are captains or co-pilots, whereas the ICAO standard since 23 November 2006 has been that ATPs may fly until 65 either as captain or first officer providing the other pilot in the crew is 60 or less.
The one area in which there seemed to be little dissent between the opposed ARC camps was that raising the pilot age would be administratively and legally difficult for airlines during the transition period. The reports recommends: "Any change to the age 60 rule should be prospective. If preventing [retired pilot] reinstatement is outside the scope of the administrator's authority, federal legislation may be required to protect companies and unions from lawsuits that may arise challenging the prospective nature of the change, such as reinstatement of employment, seniority, and/or crew position."
The report makes it clear a great deal of the opposition to an age 65 limit is based on the administrative inconvenience of the transition, reporting that "one chief medical officer responded that a system without an age limit would be an 'administrative nightmare'".
Of just over 5,500 "unique commenters" who submitted evidence to the ARC, 4,000 favoured the change and 1,500 opposed it.
Eventual change seems probable because the US Aerospace Medical Association has told the ARC that there is no statistical evidence in the USA or overseas that pilot age adversely affects airline safety.

For and against 65

The Aviation Rulemaking Committee is divided over whether the US air transport pilot maximum age should rise to 65. Arguments against include:​

• "Before rulemaking... the FAA should conduct a safety risk assessment with... airline, pilot, and aeromedical representatives."​
• "The age 60 rule remains a contentious issue for the commercial aviation industry. It has broad-reaching implications for individual pilots and the companies that employ them."​

Arguments in favour include:​

• "Medical and ageing experts agree there is no medical rationale for the age 60 rule."​
• "The policy should be based on operational rather than medical considerations, as ageing is not an illness."​
• "Older pilots are at greater risk because of an increased incidence of heart disease or stroke, [but for] younger pilots there are increased risks for incapacitating illnesses such as bleeding peptic ulcer disease or migraine headaches."​
• "There has never been a US air carrier accident assigned to medical causes. Incidents have occurred in flight that threatened safety, but these are rare and, when they occur, the illness is almost always not incapacitating. Given this, and the fact there are two pilots... the risk is vanishingly small."​

 

[JohnDoe]

It's the co-pilots and regional pilots that are against the change based soley on economic and career advancement reasons.

Just like the people that want it changed do so for the very same career and economic reasons. "Age discrimination" is just eye-candy to mask the real reason for the arguement.

It is economics for both sides. Although I find it ironic that you mention the career advancement reason considering every single airline pilot out there right now has, at one time, benefitted from the age 60 rule. And now they want it changed.