Multi Commercial

[OrionFE]

I am trying to comprehend FAR 61.129. What is the minimum multi time you need to take a Com/Multi checkride (no single engine com rating). I am trying to figure out if it will be cheaper to do my Com/Multi first, then the single commercial in my own C-172 (PTS says if you already have a Com/Multi you do not need a complex airplane for the single com add on). Or renting an RG, doing the single commercial and then renting the twin and doing the multi add on.

 

[adisk811]

you only need 10 hrs of instruction in a twin for your multi-comm. Thats how i did mine and would recommend doing it that way. Your SE Comm add-onn is a joke after that. Me entire checkride was less than 1.5 hrs including flight and oral. Any questions, lemme know

 

[minitour]

you only need 10 hrs of instruction in a twin for your multi-comm. Thats how i did mine and would recommend doing it that way. Your SE Comm add-onn is a joke after that. Me entire checkride was less than 1.5 hrs including flight and oral. Any questions, lemme know

How do you figure 10 hours of instruction?

Don't forget the solo.

I see it as 30 hours: 20 instruction + 10 solo

(b) For an airplane multiengine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and multiengine class rating must log at least 250 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:
(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be in airplanes.
(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which includes at least—
(i) 50 hours in airplanes; and
(ii) 50 hours in cross-country flight of which at least 10 hours must be in airplanes.
(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least—
(i) 10 hours of instrument training of which at least 5 hours must be in a multiengine airplane;
(ii) 10 hours of training in a multiengine airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and controllable pitch propellers, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant seeking a multiengine seaplane rating, 10 hours of training in a multiengine seaplane that has flaps and a controllable pitch propeller;
(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a multiengine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;
(iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a multiengine airplane in night VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(v) 3 hours in a multiengine airplane in preparation for the practical test within the 60-day period preceding the date of the test.
(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a multiengine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement in paragraph (b)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least—
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and
(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight with a traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.


Seems like 30 to me.

Is there a legal opinion/reference that someone has? If so, please let me know...I'm trying to save a student some money and he's ready for the 'ride...he's got 20+ Multi but not quite 30...would like to do some flights working on the maneuvers in the 172.

-mini

 

[Metro752]

There's no solo required for multi commercial,

I see you underlined it, but it's cheaper to bring an instructor buddy along and split the costs.

He said 10 in a twin, I suppose you could do the 20 [(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least]— in a SE plane, since it doesn't say the commercial instruction needs to be in a twin in §61.127(b)(2), but just that you need 10 hours in a twin for the comm multi rating.

 

[Hikoushi]

I've done a few of these, and our examiner out here goes with the 30-hour minimum theory.

(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least—
(i) 10 hours of instrument training of which at least 5 hours must be in a multiengine airplane;
..is interpreted to mean he needs to log a TOTAL of 20 hours DUAL in multiengine airplanes, including the 10 hours of instrument training; up to 5 hours of previously logged instrument time from other category or class(or FTD, etc.) can be credited toward the 10 total required IFR hours, with at least 5 additional IFR hours logged in the twin. Regardless of how the instrument time is done or how much he needs, he still needs the 20 hours TOTAL dual in the multiengine airplane, since he is doing his initial commercial certificate and not an add-on.
(ii) 10 hours of training in a multiengine airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and controllable pitch propellers, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant seeking a multiengine seaplane rating, 10 hours of training in a multiengine seaplane that has flaps and a controllable pitch propeller;
(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a multiengine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;
(iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a multiengine airplane in night VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(v) 3 hours in a multiengine airplane in preparation for the practical test within the 60-day period preceding the date of the test.
..So you have to do AT LEAST this stuff (instrument, x-c, and night), plus fill out the rest of the 20 total required dual hours with other training, which will happen anyway just doing maneuvers and such.
(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a multiengine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement in paragraph (b)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least—
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and
(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight with a traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.
..This 10 hours is seperate from the 20 hours of TRAINING (dual) time listed above, and needs to be logged differently; the remarks column needs to reflect "Performing duties of PIC" or some such. An alternative method is to give them the signoff allowing them to act as PIC of aircraft for which they do not hold a rating (see AC61-65) with a limitation that requires an MEI to be on board with them, then let them log that time as PIC. When checkride time comes, remove the restriction.

So I'll say 30, too. Again, this may be interpreted differently by different examiners, so ask around locally if you can, but this is how they do it out here. One of my guys was an ASEL private/instrument rated dude; he built time doing his cross-countries, and we started his multi as outlined above when he got to 220 total time. Did the last 30 as his initial commercial in the twin, then the single-engine add-on afterwards.

 

[AK47]

John Lynch in his (departed) Part 61 FAQ said the following:

"... the grand total is 20 hours for the final tabulation of absolute minimum flight time in a multiengine airplane. The rule requires 10 hours of dual training time and 10 hours of solo or performing the duties as a PIC with an instructor on board."


but this is not a legal interpretation.

 

[Junkflyer]

If you don't have an instrument rating it would probably be easier/cheaper to do it in the single engine first.

 

[minitour]

John Lynch in his (departed) Part 61 FAQ said the following:

"... the grand total is 20 hours for the final tabulation of absolute minimum flight time in a multiengine airplane. The rule requires 10 hours of dual training time and 10 hours of solo or performing the duties as a PIC with an instructor on board."


but this is not a legal interpretation.

But it doesn't...it requires 20 hour of dual and 10 of solo or performing the duties of PIC with an instructor. Where is he getting 10 and 10?

-mini

 

[AC560]

But it doesn't...it requires 20 hour of dual and 10 of solo or performing the duties of PIC with an instructor. Where is he getting 10 and 10?-mini

61.129(4)(b)(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least—

61.129(4)(b)(3) (ii) 10 hours of training in a multiengine airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and controllable pitch propellers, or is turbine-powered

61.129(4)(b)(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a multiengine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instruct.

You need 20hrs of training (ground and flight) total per the requirements of §61.127(b)(2). Of which and this is the key part "that includes at least— " which is 10 dual + 10 solo. You might need 10hrs of ground instruction but 20 flight hours is the minimum.

Or at least is my understanding.

 

[minitour]

61.129(4)(b)(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least—

61.129(4)(b)(3) (ii) 10 hours of training in a multiengine airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and controllable pitch propellers, or is turbine-powered

61.129(4)(b)(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a multiengine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instruct.

You need 20hrs of training (ground and flight) total per the requirements of §61.127(b)(2). Of which and this is the key part "that includes at least— " which is 10 dual + 10 solo. You might need 10hrs of ground instruction but 20 flight hours is the minimum.

Or at least is my understanding.

Doesn't work. They are two different paragraphs.

(3) is the paragraph listing the "training" that needs to be done.

(4) is a different paragraph listing a different requirement that of the 250 total hours, you must have 10 hours of "solo" time (or time spent bla bla bla).

-mini

 

[minitour]

There's no solo required for multi commercial,

I see you underlined it, but it's cheaper to bring an instructor buddy along and split the costs.

He said 10 in a twin, I suppose you could do the 20 [(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least]— in a SE plane, since it doesn't say the commercial instruction needs to be in a twin in §61.127(b)(2), but just that you need 10 hours in a twin for the comm multi rating.

aaaaaaah...now that may work for me. Gotcha.

-mini

...and Thanks!

 

[AC560]

(3) is the paragraph listing the "training" that needs to be done.

Yes according to paragraph 3 you need 20hrs of training in the areas of operation listed in Sec 61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least--

(ii) 10hrs of training in a multiengine airplane

This means that of that 20 hours of training only 10 hours need be in a multiengine plane (5 of which need to be IFR training), the other 10 could be ground instruction. Then you jump to paragraph 4 which says you need 10 hours solo or PIC with instructor.

You may need 30hrs (20 in paragraph 3 and 10 in paragraph 4) but only 20 has to be flying, the other 10 can come from ground instruction. But it only specifies 20hrs of twin flight time required.

 

[Metro752]

edited because of misinterpretation of regulation.

 

[minitour]

Y
You may need 30hrs (20 in paragraph 3 and 10 in paragraph 4) but only 20 has to be flying, the other 10 can come from ground instruction. But it only specifies 20hrs of twin flight time required.

I don't buy that. Supbart (b) of 61.129 is specifying "flight time" required (aeronautical experience) for a Commercial Pilot Certificate with Multi-Engine rating. You need at least 250 hours of "flight time" of which at least 20 must be instruction and 10 must be solo.

I'll buy that some of the "training" does not have to be done in a multiengine airplane, but I can't see where you're getting that some of it can be ground training. Unless you're referring to an approved sim or FTD?

Knowledge training (ground) would be covered by part 61.125.

-mini

 

[AC560]

I don't buy that. Supbart (b) of 61.129 is specifying "flight time"

61.129(b)(3) and its subparts are the key. It specifies 20hrs of training in the areas of 61.127(b)(2) which must include at least 10hrs of multi flight time. If you look at 61.127(b) you will see things like pre-flight preparation, preflight procedures, etc. which obviously is not going to be trained in the air. So again you need 20hrs of training on the areas in 61.127(b)(2) which again must include at minimum of 10hrs in an airplane and the other stuff covered after the phrase at least in 61.129(b)(3)

You need at least 250 hours of "flight time"

You need 200hrs of "flight time", the other 50 can come from a simulator. This is actual a question on the current commercial written.

I'll buy that some of the "training" does not have to be done in a multiengine airplane,

The two sections are almost identical so I think that is why you are missing what I am talking about.

Read 61.129(b)(3) see that it says 20hrs of training in the areas of 61.127(b)(2) if you refer to that part you see items other then flight time which are required. It further places the stipulation of what that 20hrs must be made up with at minimum with the statement "that includes at least" and then lists those minimums in (i)-(v).

Think about it why would it say you need 20hrs of training (notice it doesn't say flight time) and then say that includes at least and then list a smaller flight time number then 20 if it was talking strictly about flight time?

 

[minitour]

61.129 is Aeronautical Experience - What flight (or simulator) times you must have.

61.127 is Flight Proficiency - What you have to learn how to do in the airplane.

61.125 is Aeronautical Knowledge - What you are required to know (ground school).

I don't think I've seen an applicant go to an examiner with 235 airplane hours and 15 "ground instruction" hours on Preflight preparation and preflight procedures as outlined in 61.127.

I agree with you that 61.129 doesn't specify all of the multi-engine flight time. Some can be done in a single. I don't agree with doing "preflight" preparation on the ground. It should come in an endorsement after a flight "Preflight preparation and procedures, short field takeoff, steep turns..."

-mini

 

[minitour]

You need 200hrs of "flight time", the other 50 can come from a simulator. This is actual a question on the current commercial written.

Okay it's "time as a pilot", not "flight time" my bad.

-mini

 

[Hikoushi]

61.129(4)(b)(3) (ii) 10 hours of training in a multiengine airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and controllable pitch propellers, or is turbine-powered

...seems to be specifically referring to the commercial complex-aircraft training requirements, giving you the option to do the rest of the 20 hours of training in a non-complex twin (could happen, you never know!). The single-engine commercial requirements are the same. An initial commercial applicant in a SINGLE ENGINE airplane could technically do their training in a fixed-gear Piper Warrior (for example) plus 10 hours in a retractable (say an Arrow), then split the checkride into 2 flights, doing everything in the Warrior except for one or two turns in the pattern in the complex airplane to demonstrate competency. I've seen that done a couple of times, mostly due to airplane availability issues, etc. But, if the initial commercial is in a single, the minimum times need to be met in a single. Similarly, that 20 hours of training needs to be in a multi if the initial commercial is in a multi, since 61.127 (b) (2)specifically refers to multiengine airplanes.