Question for regional captains

[AerroMatt]

I spied this thread at the General Info section, and thought I'd post it here with a question:

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=90641

My question is this: What are your thoughts/feelings/etc about having to work with low-time pilots in the right seat? If some regionals are actually lowering their hiring mins to 400TT as stated in one of these posts, are you finding you are having to spend an extra amount of time with new-hires on their procedures, and improving their flying skills? Do you think you would have an extra burden on your hands if your airline started hiring people with under 200TT?

I'm not trying to flame here. Just wondering what the consensus might be on this topic. The way things are going, it just may become a reality in the near future.

 

[BlueCanoe]

Just like people at any experience level. Some are good, some are bad. Some want to learn and will be consumate professionals, some won't.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Low time pilots are like term paper. I get to determine, through teaching, mentoring and a relaxed environment how good the final product will be....

 

[CJA]

Remember those 4 levels of learning they teach you to be a flight instructor (rote, understanding, application, correlation)? The low time guys are still on the rote level.

 

[PCL_128]

I've seen very little difference between the 300TT pilots and the 1500TT CFIs. The only thing that makes a difference is time in type and time flying 121. The guys that came from previous 121 carriers are far superior, but no noticeable difference between the "bridge" guys and the CFIs.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Generally terrible and no help when things go south.

 

[CoolSidePillow]

There is as many answers to this question as low time pilots sitting in the right seat. A lot has to do with what kind of time they have in those 400- 600 hours, what kind of attitude they have, how confident they are, how good the training is at the company and whether or not the company lets the bad ones slip through cracks just to get more bodies. A low time pilot with a good attitude is great, they are there to be a First Officer and do ALL the duties that come with that. They work hard to support the Captain and make the operation run smooth. They take pride in what they do and try to do the job best of their ability regardless of how bad the pay is..... especially since they new what the pay would be BEFORE they signed on. Of course how they develop from those 600 hours has a lot to do with the Captains they fly with. Good Captains can make an FO better. I have flown with low time guys and they do a great job.... they know their limits and are willing to ask questions and learn, they study and really make effort to know the aircraft and the operation. It can be a bit touchy in really bad weather or some kind of problem. I would rather have the above mentioned good FO than some guy with some time but has a bug in his butt because he thinks he should be sitting left seat. Co-Captainitis. We were all new and we all had to learn. Real estate is location...location...location Well professionalism is attitude...attitude...attitude

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Generally terrible and no help when things go south.

If you can't handle it, perhaps some more training might be good for you.... or re-bid FO and gain more expereince until you are ready...




How did UAL and other majors handle the 300TT pilots in the late 60's? Part of their checkride included a Commerical Mutli engine rating...

 

[NoJoy]

For the first couple hundred hrs it is a steep leaning curve for pilots with around 300hr tt. Once most of them get around 500 hrs in the a/c, they are as good as any other pilot I have flown with with the same amount of time in the a/c. Now when these low time pilots make it to CA, they are as good as anyone, but I will say that being a CFI with 500-1000 hrs of teaching experience will help being a CA, regardless of how much time the FO has.

 

[AerroMatt]

Thanks for the replies, fellas. I appreciate it.

 

[Tarzan]

Remember those 4 levels of learning they teach you to be a flight instructor (rote, understanding, application, correlation)? The low time guys are still on the rote level.

WOW! I can't believe after 11K hours, you still recall that stuff.

 

[n32jk]

If you can't handle it, perhaps some more training might be good for you.... or re-bid FO and gain more expereince until you are ready...




How did UAL and other majors handle the 300TT pilots in the late 60's? Part of their checkride included a Commerical Mutli engine rating...

Well in the late 60's they went to the panel for 10 years and learned a lot from observation.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Here's to you, Mr. Low-Time-Pilot-Mentor-Guy.

 

[BlueCanoe]

There is as many answers to this question as low time pilots sitting in the right seat. A lot has to do with what kind of time they have in those 400- 600 hours, what kind of attitude they have, how confident they are, how good the training is at the company and whether or not the company lets the bad ones slip through cracks just to get more bodies. A low time pilot with a good attitude is great, they are there to be a First Officer and do ALL the duties that come with that. They work hard to support the Captain and make the operation run smooth. They take pride in what they do and try to do the job best of their ability regardless of how bad the pay is..... especially since they new what the pay would be BEFORE they signed on. Of course how they develop from those 600 hours has a lot to do with the Captains they fly with. Good Captains can make an FO better. I have flown with low time guys and they do a great job.... they know their limits and are willing to ask questions and learn, they study and really make effort to know the aircraft and the operation. It can be a bit touchy in really bad weather or some kind of problem. I would rather have the above mentioned good FO than some guy with some time but has a bug in his butt because he thinks he should be sitting left seat. Co-Captainitis. We were all new and we all had to learn. Real estate is location...location...location Well professionalism is attitude...attitude...attitude

Perfect. Add Rez's comments and it's absolutely covered.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Well in the late 60's they went to the panel for 10 years and learned a lot from observation.

Well I don't reccommend removing yourself from the left seat to go to the panel if you could, except maybe FedEx or UPS, to get the observation you need, so that you can handle a low time pilot in the right seat...

 

[airplane wizard]

What if you had a lousy FO with a know it all attitude, but she is also sizziling hot with "DD" t**ts? Would you mind flying with her?

 

[svcta]

DD's. That's what I call personality and personality goes a long way.

 

[airplane wizard]

DD's must count for at least 500me don't they

 

[I Hate Freight]

What if you had a lousy FO with a know it all attitude, but she is also sizziling hot with "DD" t**ts? Would you mind flying with her?

Yes. While I would deinitely like to look at the DDs, I'm not so weak of a man that they would make up for the fact that she is a lousey f/o and perhaps unsafe.

 

[Murdoughnut]

Yes. While I would deinitely like to look at the DDs, I'm not so weak of a man that they would make up for the fact that she is a lousey f/o and perhaps unsafe.

... or has an ugly face.

 

[Exskydiverdrivr]

Most people can learn. Doesn't matter what you might think- the guy is hired .So you might as well do whatever you have to do to get him up to speed. Doesn't matter the he probably flew a flawless ILS on his interview, A jet is going to overwhelm for awhile.

If you are a low time guy in this situation you can make life alot easier for yourself by really being strong on your IFR skills. You may get lucky and get the job being marginal, but you're gonna tick off the guys you're flying with. Nothing like looking at 1200 RVR and you have an F.O. who has taken flight. (one of those learning behaviours)

 

[T-prop]

I've been surprised how good some of these guys with 400hrs can be. I used to be skeptical at first, as I have come through the CFI and "pilot service" route.

After coming to Mesa from another carrier the MAPD guys are really pretty sharp. It seems to be the attitude and personality that makes the difference b/n a bad apple and a good one.

They start out in a late model A36's and finish in BE-58's so they know how to keep ahead of an airplane that is difficult to slow down, and they get a lot of flight time over a short amount of time. They have a good program director, former air force general, that runs a pretty tight ship.

Unfortunately, they don't make enough money when they start at Mesa to pay off their rather expensive flight training costs.

After about 100-300 hrs on line the differences all fade.

I am still a fan of the CFI route though. A CFI can at least tell the difference between an SR-22 and a Cherokee 180.

 

[BlueCanoe]

Most people can learn. Doesn't matter what you might think- the guy is hired .So you might as well do whatever you have to do to get him up to speed. Doesn't matter the he probably flew a flawless ILS on his interview, A jet is going to overwhelm for awhile.

If you are a low time guy in this situation you can make life alot easier for yourself by really being strong on your IFR skills. You may get lucky and get the job being marginal, but you're gonna tick off the guys you're flying with. Nothing like looking at 1200 RVR and you have an F.O. who has taken flight. (one of those learning behaviours)

Uhh, I think any cowboy single-pilot 135 guy who "knows the right way" is just as bad since they didn't take the time to learn your companies procedures.

Or any high-time guy who is marginal and has slipped through cracks for years.

It's pass or fail, not graded on a bell curve so there can be a 15000 hour screw up.

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

Seems to me a 300 hour pilot, no matter how good, is essentially a "canned" version of a pilot. Simply trained specifically for one thing, flying the RJ. Or another aircraft if that is the program they are under. A 1500 hour CFI has seen far more than that 300 hour program pilot who has only been flying for maybe 6 months?? I think if you took the two pilots described out of the RJ, there wouldn't be much comparison. That 300 hour pilot wouldn't qualify for practically any other job. Pretty ridiculous huh?

On the other hand, I know a number of guys that were flying four engine heavy bombers in WWII. When I asked how many hours one of em had when he became a Captain on the B-24, he responded "I had a lot of hours by then, around 300".

No offense to those 300 hour guys, but that is such an incredibly low amount of time to be flying a 400 knot plus airplane.

Mr. I.

 

[BlueCanoe]

Seems to me a 300 hour pilot, no matter how good, is essentially a "canned" version of a pilot. Simply trained specifically for one thing, flying the RJ. Or another aircraft if that is the program they are under. A 1500 hour CFI has seen far more than that 300 hour program pilot who has only been flying for maybe 6 months?? I think if you took the two pilots described out of the RJ, there wouldn't be much comparison. That 300 hour pilot wouldn't qualify for practically any other job. Pretty ridiculous huh?

On the other hand, I know a number of guys that were flying four engine heavy bombers in WWII. When I asked how many hours one of em had when he became a Captain on the B-24, he responded "I had a lot of hours by then, around 300".

No offense to those 300 hour guys, but that is such an incredibly low amount of time to be flying a 400 knot plus airplane.

Mr. I.

I've flown with 1500 hour CFIs that, depending on their previous experience, suck at 400 kts as a 400TT individual. Going from a 110 kt airplane to one that profiles at 290 is a big jump. I don't think I could have done it without flying Tprops first, but that's just me.

The biggest part is getting up to speed. Same time for people from the same background. If the CFI has been out doing time "in the system" or riding shotgun on 135 runs, whether they're "required" or not, or SIC riding as a crew goes alot further. But a CFI riding around in FL or AZ, not knowing anything but super VFR and in FL can only get lost going N/S, I don't believe is anybetter equipped than someone with 500TT in the same environment.

 

[Beergut]

I think I should be paid what the IP's are paid.

 

[AerroMatt]

On the other hand, I know a number of guys that were flying four engine heavy bombers in WWII. When I asked how many hours one of em had when he became a Captain on the B-24, he responded "I had a lot of hours by then, around 300".

It is my understanding that the Army Air Corps had an awful accident rate during this time also. It didn't matter, 'cause it was wartime and they needed warm bodies to put those bombs on the target.

Is there an analogy here?

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

It is my understanding that the Army Air Corps had an awful accident rate during this time also. It didn't matter, 'cause it was wartime and they needed warm bodies to put those bombs on the target.

Is there an analogy here?

Probably is. Except none of the 300 hour pilots in an RJ are acting as PIC's. Some of them may be as good as 1500 hour CFI's but I'd be surprised if outside that RJ cockpit they are any better. As I mentioned, none of these 300 hour pilots could do any other work but flight instructing if they even have their CFI tickets. 300 hours is simply 300 hours. Not much time to be good at anything other than monkey see, monkey do. Please don't take this to think I'm insinuating they won't all be great captains someday. Maybe they will or even probably will but at 300 hours.....

Mr. I.

 

[n32jk]

Well I don't reccommend removing yourself from the left seat to go to the panel if you could, except maybe FedEx or UPS, to get the observation you need, so that you can handle a low time pilot in the right seat...

I do about 600 hours of OE with these low time guys a year. I have observed plenty in the last 22 years of 121 flying. I would take the panel at FEDEX in a heartbeat however.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I do about 600 hours of OE with these low time guys a year. I have observed plenty in the last 22 years of 121 flying. I would take the panel at FEDEX in a heartbeat however.

so why the complaining...??