More merger speculation

[FlyinGuy]

At least ALPA polled their membership and listened to majority rule. Can you say that for your union?



Yes we can...(unfortunately!)

 

[FDJ2]

General,

My gripe is in the fact that ALPA leadership advised us to give up our bargaining rights because we were "assured" of a fair and equitable integration(see previous post from FDJ2).

Why would the APA and AMR insist on you surrendering your merger protection if they intended to treat you fairly? Obviously they didn't and historically they haven't.

At any rate, it is a poor example of the ALPA merger policy, since in fact, the ALPA merger policy was not controlling the process.

You can comment all you want as to why the TWA pilots conceded their merger protections, but you can't argue that ALPA policy was ineffective in protecting your rights when you didn't use the ALPA merger policy to integrate your lists to begin with.

 

[SWA/FO]

You stuck your nose into the thread to raise the 65 issue so don't think the role your house is playing shouldn't be called out. If it passes I will certainly begrude your current leadership. This nation hardly prides itself on following the lead of other nations, so I doubt the ICAO decision would have made any noise if not for the lobby groups funded partly by your fabulous leadership. At least ALPA polled their membership and listened to majority rule. Can you say that for your union?

You are talking with one of the highest ranking flightinfo.com super senior members. Just because I added the fact that age 65 is coming, you girls get all upset. It appears some folks can't handle reality.

 

[Deerkiller]

You are talking with one of the highest ranking flightinfo.com super senior members. Just because I added the fact that age 65 is coming, you girls get all upset. It appears some folks can't handle reality.

WOW, you just pulled seniority on FI.com. Now that's funny.

Back to your regularly scheduled thread drift.

 

[Diesel-9]

FI.COM Super Senior Member. (SSM) Highest ranking? Compared to what? I'll have to go to out to a Wal-Mart today and ask a greeter what the f*#k that means. Must be an impressive claim in the civilian ranks.

 

[General Lee]

FI.COM Super Senior Member. (SSM) Highest ranking? Compared to what? I'll have to go to out to a Wal-Mart today and ask a greeter what the f*#k that means. Must be an impressive claim in the civilian ranks.

Does that mean I am the Supreme Leader? Sweet!

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[B727Driver]

yes you are General. Sweet it is.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Wrong attitude

age 65 factored into that?

Reality is far different than your wet dreams. Age 65 is NOT a factor unless your a SWA pilot dreaming about retiring as a working airline pilot.

 

[Diesel-9]

Yes, General. You are awarded a battlefield promotion to Supreme Leader. S.L. **** vs. S.S.M. **

 

[TV9Driver]

FDJ2,

You are right, I shouldn't be bashing ALPA's merger policy. I should have instead focused my angst on the ALPA leadership instead. Of course, policy is only as good as those behind it.

Good luck to everyone involved.

 

[SWA/FO]

I meant to type: 5 Star Senior Member. I stand corrected, thanks ladies.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

I really don't want to merge with anyone. But, IF WE HAD TO, then NW would be the best, hub wise, for DL.

Bye Bye--General Lee

The only way a merger with NWA for you would be good if ALL NWA management is left behind to rot on the vine. If ANY of them come along to the merged company may God help us all....They would keep pouring gasoline on you as you burn then once the fire burns out on its own and only then would they piss on you for good measure.

 

[Captain X]

Thank you in fact I did for 45K+ hours,

Typo or B.S.?

You decide.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

The only way a merger with NWA for you would be good if ALL NWA management is left behind to rot on the vine. If ANY of them come along to the merged company may God help us all....They would keep pouring gasoline on you as you burn then once the fire burns out on its own and only then would they piss on you for good measure.

Steenland will step down, but the other members of the EMT at NWA are young and want control over the roost. I expect Niel Cohen will run the merged carrier.

 

[jetflier]

Steenland will step down, but the other members of the EMT at NWA are young and want control over the roost. I expect Niel Cohen will run the merged carrier.

YPF,

Man I hope you're wrong about Cohen, Maybe he'll go to the next carrier thats ripe for the pickin'...

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

I'm going to, um, have to disagree with the General there. CAL and NWA have many connections...most of which are not apparent from those peeking through the window.

It's important to note that NWA is NOT a publically traded company as is most other airlines. One group of stockholders, Gary Wilson and his buds, holds most of the stock....the remaining float is tiny. It doesn't matter if it is good or bad for the airline, only if it is good or bad for Gary will anything transpire.

Gary plays golf with those who control CAL, and all the money men involved in both are drinking buddies. Gary is still pissed that he didn't cash out to AMR back in 2000 with TWA was on the block and UAL/USAir was still the rage, and he's probably looking for the exit.

Here is the interesting twist...the MOST valuable (by far) part of NWA is the Pacific route system. BUT that part cannot be extricated from the rest of the airline. The pax and cargo rights are entertwined and only the NWA corporate entity may operate them. In any transaction, the surviving corporate entity MUST be NWA for those rights to continue.

Soooo, General...on the chance that a NWA/DAL deal goes through, how will it feel to be working for a corporate subsidiary of NWA? Sort of like, hmmm, I dunno, may the way Comair pilots must feel. Might want to ask one of them what it's like before you get too excited.

Nu

 

[General Lee]

Heyas,

I'm going to, um, have to disagree with the General there. CAL and NWA have many connections...most of which are not apparent from those peeking through the window.

It's important to note that NWA is NOT a publically traded company as is most other airlines. One group of stockholders, Gary Wilson and his buds, holds most of the stock....the remaining float is tiny. It doesn't matter if it is good or bad for the airline, only if it is good or bad for Gary will anything transpire.

Gary plays golf with those who control CAL, and all the money men involved in both are drinking buddies. Gary is still pissed that he didn't cash out to AMR back in 2000 with TWA was on the block and UAL/USAir was still the rage, and he's probably looking for the exit.

Here is the interesting twist...the MOST valuable (by far) part of NWA is the Pacific route system. BUT that part cannot be extricated from the rest of the airline. The pax and cargo rights are entertwined and only the NWA corporate entity may operate them. In any transaction, the surviving corporate entity MUST be NWA for those rights to continue.

Soooo, General...on the chance that a NWA/DAL deal goes through, how will it feel to be working for a corporate subsidiary of NWA? Sort of like, hmmm, I dunno, may the way Comair pilots must feel. Might want to ask one of them what it's like before you get too excited.

Nu

CAL and NWA still don't have any West Coast presence. Hardly any. NW has a very small A330 base in SEA, and that is about it. Nah, not a good fit.

And, Did United have to keep Pan Am's name when they got their Asian routes? Nope. It could be worked out. Sure it could.

And, regardless, ALPA and the merger policy would work for you and me. That is the way it goes, and it won't be like Comair and DL. Nah. Doubt it. It would all be worked out as a merger. Delta is a lot larger than NWA anyway. Even Mineta hinted we would be allowed to come out together. Let the lawyers work on it before you do. Don't get too whipped up please. The lawyers will do it right, that is why they are paid the big bucks.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[NuGuy]

And, Did United have to keep Pan Am's name when they got their Asian routes? Nope. It could be worked out. Sure it could.

Different treaties involved...Pan Am's rights were routes negotiated between the US and Japan, then awarded to PanAm. They were an entirely different situation.

NWA's fifth freedom rights involve an agreement directly with the Japanese Government and NWA that dates back to 1946. In essence, those rights allow NWA to operate as a Japanese Airline out of NRT, something no other air carrier in the world has, except Japanese 'domestic' airlines. Even the transactions involving the NRT routes are conducted in Yen through Japanese banks.

This is a subtle point that eludes even the most ardent Airliners.net poster. Many state that the 777 and 787 will make the NRT hub irrelevant, because US-Asia traffic will bypass it. The point, however, is that the NRT hub is called the Asian Interport for a reason...it is there to handle INTERASIAN traffic. The Asia-US traffic, while important, is NOT the primary revenue producer out of NRT. It is the destinations in the US that are spokes on the NRT hub, not the other way around.

Without the fifth freedom rights out of NRT, this ceases to be the case, and it simply becomes another marginal spoke.

The Japanese government has made it VERY clear that the routes are NOT negotiable items in any case, and the fifth freedom rights are tied directly to the NWA operating certificate.

Occam actually has the lowdown on the nitty gritty details. Suffice to say, if it was easy to spin off cargo or the Pacific from NWA, it would have been done long ago. The reason they're still a part of NWA is that they are basically inexerable from the airline. Even if you sold off every narrowbody (or most, NWA has some NB routes out of NRT) and all the non-Pacific widebodies (the 330-300), all you'd wind up with is a crippled international carrier with no domestic feed, who's rights drop dead if they are bought.

An interesting "poison pill" to say the least.

As for no west coast feed...I'm not sure a SLC hub would qualify in that regard. Besides, the west coast has ZERO pricing power with SWA and Frontier stomping up and down from SEA to Diego. You might as well run an intra-state service in FL or TX for all the good it will do you. You couldn't get worse yield if you flew from ATL-MCO....ooops, sorry....


Nu

 

[Diesel-9]

SHACK!!! NuGuy!!! Somebody with facts on here! Interesting times approaching. Think NWA will go private with a large purchase enroute and an IPO in 2-3 years...

 

[FDJ2]

Soooo, General...on the chance that a NWA/DAL deal goes through, how will it feel to be working for a corporate subsidiary of NWA? Sort of like, hmmm, I dunno, may the way Comair pilots must feel.
Nu

The lists would be integrated between NWA and DAL pilots. It's a little contract thing both NWA and DAL share which CMR pilots didn't have and still don't.

Nice try though.

 

[jetflier]

United and Continental Discussing Possible Merger

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Article Tools Sponsored By
By ANDREW ROSS SORKIN and JEFF BAILEY
Published: December 12, 2006

United Airlines is holding preliminary talks to merge with Continental Airlines in a huge deal that would further reshape the struggling airline industry, people involved in the negotiations said tonight.

The discussions, though far from complete, recently picked up pace following US Airways’ bid last month to buy Delta Air Lines for about $8 billion, these people said.

US Airways’ proposal, promising $1.65 billion a year in savings by combining with Delta, has helped add urgency to carriers’ interests in merging.

A United spokeswoman, Jean Medina, and a Continental spokesman, David Messing, each declined to comment.

Any deal between the two airlines is far from imminent. Continental and United executives are watching the US Airways and Delta situation to see how it might play with antitrust regulators. Delta is expected to file its plan to exit bankruptcy proceedings next week, following a flurry of meetings scheduled for later this week among Delta creditors and others.

Analysts have long favored a combination of United’s Asian routes and heavy coverage of the Western United States with Continental’s Latin American and European routes and its large and highly profitable hub in Newark.

At today’s close of the stock market, Continental’s market capitalization was about $4 billion and United’s was about $5 billion.

United’s chief executive, Glenn Tilton, and Continental’s chief executive, Larry Kellner, have met in person to discuss a combination, a person with knowledge of the talks said. Today, however, Mr. Kellner was in Tel Aviv on business, Continental had informed its employees earlier this week.

Any effort by the two to merge would be complicated by an agreement Continental has with Northwest Airlines. The agreement could allow Northwest to block certain merger transactions involving Continental, but could allow Continental more freedom to enter into a combination if it was the acquiring party and approval of its shareholders was not required.

Also, if Northwest entered into a merger, it would lose its blocking power over Continental.
Next Article in Business (1 of 32) »
Need to know more? 50% off home delivery of The Times.

 

[General Lee]

Different treaties involved...Pan Am's rights were routes negotiated between the US and Japan, then awarded to PanAm. They were an entirely different situation.

NWA's fifth freedom rights involve an agreement directly with the Japanese Government and NWA that dates back to 1946. In essence, those rights allow NWA to operate as a Japanese Airline out of NRT, something no other air carrier in the world has, except Japanese 'domestic' airlines. Even the transactions involving the NRT routes are conducted in Yen through Japanese banks.

This is a subtle point that eludes even the most ardent Airliners.net poster. Many state that the 777 and 787 will make the NRT hub irrelevant, because US-Asia traffic will bypass it. The point, however, is that the NRT hub is called the Asian Interport for a reason...it is there to handle INTERASIAN traffic. The Asia-US traffic, while important, is NOT the primary revenue producer out of NRT. It is the destinations in the US that are spokes on the NRT hub, not the other way around.

Without the fifth freedom rights out of NRT, this ceases to be the case, and it simply becomes another marginal spoke.

The Japanese government has made it VERY clear that the routes are NOT negotiable items in any case, and the fifth freedom rights are tied directly to the NWA operating certificate.

Occam actually has the lowdown on the nitty gritty details. Suffice to say, if it was easy to spin off cargo or the Pacific from NWA, it would have been done long ago. The reason they're still a part of NWA is that they are basically inexerable from the airline. Even if you sold off every narrowbody (or most, NWA has some NB routes out of NRT) and all the non-Pacific widebodies (the 330-300), all you'd wind up with is a crippled international carrier with no domestic feed, who's rights drop dead if they are bought.

An interesting "poison pill" to say the least.

As for no west coast feed...I'm not sure a SLC hub would qualify in that regard. Besides, the west coast has ZERO pricing power with SWA and Frontier stomping up and down from SEA to Diego. You might as well run an intra-state service in FL or TX for all the good it will do you. You couldn't get worse yield if you flew from ATL-MCO....ooops, sorry....


Nu

Wow, I guess we should stop all of our LAX expansion, to you know, cities Southwest doesn't go to. We are starting LAX--Guatemala City, Managua, Puerto Vallarta, ten other Mexican Cities initially with RJs, and eventual service to Asia. Yeah, Southwest goes to those.... We aren't competing with any of those LCC--we are adding flights to cities we know we can do well to. No competing with Frontier or Southwest. Nope. You appear to be wrong.

And, thanks for the treaty info. Looks like a possible merger would include the NW name. I don't really care. ALPA will take care of the details. You know they will.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Occam's Razor]

To add to what NuGuy has posted about NWA route authority: NWA's Fifth Freedom authority thru Japan to other Asian markets was modified 1999 - 2001 when the "B" slots (rights to use the short runway) were negotiated. The US government was not involved in the negotiations, since that was a commercial deal set up during post-war reconstruction. When the "B" slots were added, NWA gave up some Fifth Freedom authority thru hubs other than NRT (ie: KIX, NGO, FUK). Under the original terms, NWA could add a Fifth Freedom segment anytime it added another flight to Japan. That made the authority "unrestricted" and really chafed the Japanese airlines.

The flight that caused the new deal to be negotiated was a segment we flew from Osaka to Sydney. A block-seat marketing agreement with the Japanese Tourist Bureau made it a very profitable run.

The Japanese government blocked NWA's Fifth Freedom authority for that flight by prohibiting passengers from boarding in Osaka. They had to be "thru passengers" from JFK. NWA sued on Japanese court and the case was settled by the current deal, which pulled some of NWA's rights in exchange for the "B" slots. It was an erosion to NWA's total package, but the "B" slots have been money-makers.

The language in the deal separates "route authority" from "Fifth Freedom" authority. The routes are the "property of the people of Japan" (the actual language), but the Fifth Freedom rights are the property of Northwest Orient Airlines. There is a curious clause that allows the corporation to change it's name (as it did in 1986), but not it's corporate identity. That's how Checchi & Wilson were able to take NWA private via LBO in 1989 without losing the Fifth Freedom authority.

Regarding what the press is saying about CAL's ability to purchase another airline without NWA's consent...they got it wrong. The restrictions are weasel-proof (being written by weasels!), and even prevent CAL from hooking-up with another feeder airline without NWA's consent.

I've heard the emancipation of CAL is for sale...

...if the price is right.

 

[NuGuy]

I've heard the emancipation of CAL is for sale...

...if the price is right.

I say the bid should be 5 million dollars per pilot, made payable to each NWA pilot... active, furloughed or retired.

If they paid that, they can have CAL, and heck, we'll throw in NWA, MSA and Peanuckle too!

Nu