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Jimmy

Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2001
Posts
6
Gentlemen-

If I could trouble someone who is in the trenches for a reply-

I presently work for a Fractional operator and my seniority number is rising. It is a very stable job, however, I now have several other opportunities available.

Both opportunities are with the Majors - one freight, one passenger.

So, my question is - "Should I stay or should I go?"

-Jimmy
 
Need more info...

Which Cargo?
Which Pax?
Would you have to commute?
Family or single?
Age?
What kind of flying do you like to do? Dom/Int'l/Lots of up/down?

Unit
Questioner
 
Gentlemen-

If I could trouble someone who is in the trenches for a reply-

I presently work for a Fractional operator and my seniority number is rising. It is a very stable job, however, I now have several other opportunities available.

Both opportunities are with the Majors - one freight, one passenger.

So, my question is - "Should I stay or should I go?"

-Jimmy

You left out the most important part of this post: What Frac and How long have you been there? ( Equipment and Position)

This whole industry is a 110% crapshoot.. You could stay at a frac and they could tank or you could go to JB or SW and even though there is a tough road ahead I actually feel more secure right now at JB then I would at say UAL or US Air or Delta..

Everyone talks about the new lean and mean legacy carriers.. That is crap the only way they have lowered their costs is by bankrupcy and the raping of their employees salaries, benefits, and pensions. UAL is recalling and already they are forming their strike committe. Us air pilots are picketing, AWA pilots are laughing, NWA just downright has the worst reputation in the industry and their pilots are having work slowdowns and sickouts. Delta cannot survive on their own and a possible merger will reduce thousands of jobs and cause a disorganizational mess than I cannot even imagine.

Freight Operators? They are not immune The terrorists already know they can ship whatever they want on any one of a number of planes..
 
About myself Sir:

Age: 37
Marital Status: Engaged - no children, but perhaps certainly in the future

Potential Opportunities: SWA and UPS

Commuting: That's really what I hope not to do. I hope to move to a domicile and stay for the duration.

What Type Flying: I really think we have all chosen the right career; however, anything over 5 hours is too much for me. Not to say I don't enjoy it all.

-Jimmy
 
So, my question is - "Should I stay or should I go?"

-Jimmy

I say stay... if this choice HONESTLY causes you to pause with uncertainty any longer than it takes me to type this ridiculous reply then by all means stay. :smash:

BBB :D
 
Leave....either would be good.
 
Wow - good for you. If the fractional is Netjets then I would probably stay - especially with the 7/7 schedule and rising wages. If the fractional is Flight Options I would leave no matter what opportunity you had.

You can't go wrong with either SWA or UPS - both are excellent operations. I recently read that UPS would potentially place newhires onto the new 747-400s out of ANC.

Personally, if I had these choices and I was not an Netjets pilot, I would pick UPS (varied fleet and worldwide routes with a great income) and not look back. Good luck and let us know what you decide to do...
 
Go for the majors

I think your overall quality of life in the long run with be better with either SWA or UPS. Coming from a frac to a major I can tell you that for me it is much, much better.

I dont want to offend my fractional buddies ,but for me, the thought of constantly having my schedule change during your week on, loading bags in the rain, doing lav services and being away for a week at a time with average to below average pay was not what I envisioned in my long term career plans.


Good luck with your decio
 
You wrote possible oppportunities.....DId you get job offers or just interviews? Class dates or swimming class?
 
If job security is at the top of your priority list, I would go for UPS or FedEx. I don't know if not enjoying flying more than 5 hours would work well with either of those though. I have no idea what their average trips are.

It think housing is relatively affordable in both Memphis and Louisville. (I hear Memphis is kind of a sh!thole. I would prefer Louisville myself).

Can you survive UPS first year Pay?

What about night flying? I don't think SWA does many, if any, red-eyes whereas the cargo companies do lots. Just some food for thought.
 
Thank you for you responses Gentlemen:

-I guess I must answer a number of other questions here:

As far as the Frac I'm at - It's not NetJets or Options, but one of the other two. Sorry to be so vauge, but you know how it is when you are still employed and looking for a new job.

I've been with my present company over seven years, so I've decided it's time to stay or go. The opportunities I have in the future are interviews, and not class dates, so I'm curios as to where I focus my endevours-

Unfortunately, no FexEx interview

However, UPS and SWA are shaping up

Thanks for your input guys-

-Jimmy
 
The opportunities I have in the future are interviews, and not class dates, so I'm curios as to where I focus my endevours-

My two cents?

Focus on your endevours on any major you are interested. When offered a position then decide what to do.

I have always felt that someone can't say no to an airline that hasn't said yes to you.

Best of luck Jimmy!
 
Not to sound like a jerk, but you probably only have about a 15-20% chance of getting on at SWA on the first try based on what I have heard. UPS I don't know, but I think it is considerably higher. I would go to the interviews, see what they have to say, and if they make you an offer get serious about what you want to do.

I know where you are coming from with thinking about what the best course of action is, but without a firm offer you are just stressing yourself out. After attending the interviews, you may rule one or both of these companies out based on what you learn at the interview. I have a friend who had an offer at one smaller airline, went to the SWA interview while he was waiting for class and decided even if they offered him the job, he was going to the first carrier. Most guys would have called him crazy but that is exactly what he did. My point is interviews are two-way streets. This decision may become very easy after you go interview. Either way, good luck!
 
I can tell you this. You can fly day or night at SWA even when jr. We are adding a new base LAS in the fall. We have a great bunch of happy pilots that enjoy their work and enjoy a good relationship with the company. I am sure a new aircraft is in our future as is flying outside the conus. Maybe not during my tenure but definitely during yours. We make good money and we get great benefits. I believe I won the lottery coming here.

I am BWI based, I drive to work and I pick up extra flying 1-2 a month.

I can't suggest what to do. I don't know your situation or desires but with 37+/- aircraft next yr you would see some serious movement in your senority.

Good Luck

PS I did my 757 training at UPS and they have a great training facility. They make good money, but I would not say that their pilots are the happiest I have met. There is some amount of animosity between their management pilots and the line pilots.
 
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The opportunities I have in the future are interviews, and not class dates, so I'm curios as to where I focus my endevours-

Jimmy - don't mention a word about it yet to your current employer. You haven't even interviewed yet, much less got the job at either UPS or SWA. Interview, get the job, THEN worry about other avenues of employment. Baby steps...
 
Go SWA,

You won't regret it. I smile so much these days my cheeks hurt. I'm sure UPS would be great too.
 
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I'm probably tained after 15 years of this but I think there are Two Commandments in the airline business:

1. Money

2. Time off


I have known nothing but animosity with management so it is just natural to me. The culture of a company can change overnight so what is a great management/employee relationship today is not assured tomorrow. I get along great with the people if fly with. We have fun in spite of management.

I would choose the cargo route because of this:

Any yahoo can buy a few airplanes and open up a PAX airline and undercut anyone flying today. It is NOT as easy to do that with cargo because of the high infrastructure cost of sort facilities/ground transport/planes. It's hard to borrow that much money. Plus, the stability comes from the ability to up the cost of a package 50 cents and still make a ton of money. People will choose a different PAX airline for couple of bucks.

I was furloughed in 1994 and never filled out that FedEx application. My bad...I wasn't thinking out of the box (pun intended!)

Go to UPS, move to the most junior conus base with the lowest cost of living (unless you love Alaska) and just let your seniorty grow. I didn't do this either (MIA) until last year and Florida is no longer low cost living, but it is getting cheaper everyday!! Being in the top of your bid status is a good thing though. Not commuting also gives you a choice of being on reserve if you want to.

From my vantage point it's an easy call...if you get the offer. Good luck.

Unit
Moses
 
My background, so you know where I'm coming from, is a year and a half at Flexjet, then 2 years flying the 727 freight, then furloughed and into a RJ, then finally on with a Major, so I have a "somewhat" unique perspective of having done it all. I'm sure there's others who have as well, and hopefully they will also post their thoughts.

1. If you were at Netjets, I'd tell you to stay put. If you are anywhere else (which you've stated you are), either UPS or SWA would be a good bet.

Flexjet (and the other operators) don't make their PRIMARY cash off operations, they make their money off aircraft sales. During the VERY FIRST pilot meeting management called in 1998 at Flexjet, they came right out and said that, as well as stating their primary goal for Flexjet's operational wing was to simply break even. Period.

Anything that affects the aircraft sales market affects whether they stay in business, and that goes for just about everyone, Netjets simply is less affected by sales fluctuation because their operational wing actually DOES make money, so the rest of the fractional operators are only as safe as the economy.

2. Like others have said, get the job offer FIRST, then stress about which one to take. Say "Yes" to all of them, then sit back and think about it before turning in your notice.

3. SWA or UPS? I'd take UPS, but then again, I prefer freight over passenger flying, and I know I'm probably in the minority here. After leaving the cargo side with 16 days off a month and flying pax the last 6 years, I can honestly say the cargo side was a LOT more peaceful with far fewer disruptions that having passengers, not to mention flight attendants, in the back brings with it.

Both FedEx and UPS have excellent long-term viability, they haven't had a yearly loss in I can't recall when, and they haven't furloughed anyone in recent memory, even with the 9/11 downturn.

Certainly a terrorist act can throw all of that out the window, especially if it occurs on a cargo aircraft (I still wish they'd have to scan all the packages just like they do baggage, I believe explosive devices are our biggest security problem). But you can't plan on that or you'd get out of aviation all together.

I hear that UPS pilots are unhappy, but I've met quite a few jumpseating around and they were happy enough, as well as having flown a couple years doing UPS relief freight in and out of the SDF hub a couple times a week during the winters, didn't notice anything especially different from the pilots in our ops area... I think that's all in your perspective. JMHO.

So, in short, my vote is UPS 1st, SWA 2nd, non-NJA fractional last in your list of options. But, like I said, get the job, then figure out what is best for you. Your wife (and future kids) may appreciate you having SWA pass privileges more than a night freight circadian rhythm,,, so maybe SWA is more for you?

Again, all about perspective.
 
all part of the growing worldwide pilot shortage and coming hiring boom. And you will know if you made the right decision in 5 years.
 
Certainly a terrorist act can throw all of that out the window, especially if it occurs on a cargo aircraft (I still wish they'd have to scan all the packages just like they do baggage, I believe explosive devices are our biggest security problem). But you can't plan on that or you'd get out of aviation all together.

I hear that UPS pilots are unhappy.

Do you really think if a cargo airplane was blown up by terrorists, it would have an effect on that company? I mean, even the NTSB says we are a insignificant loss of life. After all, it's only 2 or 3 people and boxes. Not trying to start anything here but I just don't see people not shipping stuff because of that.

We are not happy unless we are unhappy :D

In any case, if you have the choice between SWA and UPS, consider yourself lucky. It is a tough choice.....both good companies IMO. Personally, I like not dealing with people and the better job security with UPS (if there is such a thing as job security anymore) but what airline will be around in 20 years + is anyone's guess.
 
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Gentlemen-

If I could trouble someone who is in the trenches for a reply-

I presently work for a Fractional operator and my seniority number is rising. It is a very stable job, however, I now have several other opportunities available.

Both opportunities are with the Majors - one freight, one passenger.

So, my question is - "Should I stay or should I go?"

-Jimmy

Jimmy, you were a big vague when someone asked you if you had offers. You said both opportunities were "shaping up". I'm not really sure what that means. But I wouldn't loose a wink of sleep over the entire issue until such time as you have the offer or offers 'in-hand'. I'm all for planning ahead, but in this industy the deck is always stacked against you. Whatever "shaping up" means could happen tomorrow or 12 months from now.

Don't sweat it. Call us when you get the class dates.
 
No kidding. Possible interviews are sure as hell not class dates. I wouldn't lose too much sleep just yet.

BTW.... I'd go to SWA :)

Gup
 
First interview – then go to the first place that calls you for a class, then never look back - you’ll be happy no matter what.


“They make good money, but I would not say that their pilots are the happiest I have met.”

Benhuntn – that’s a very generic statement and in my view it’s slightly misleading. I commute on SWA every week and I must say I’ve seen my share of less than happy SWA pilots by now. They all like stability and the paycheck but I’ve seen my share of irritable and stressed out SWA aviators out there too - reading your post you’d think all of them are “Prozac” happy. They always try to get you onboard which is greatly appreciated but nevertheless the grass always looks greener on the other side…
 
⌐ FLYER;1192739 said:
Benhuntn – that’s a very generic statement and in my view it’s slightly misleading. I commute on SWA every week and I must say I’ve seen my share of less than happy SWA pilots by now. They all like stability and the paycheck but I’ve seen my share of irritable and stressed out SWA aviators out there too - reading your post you’d think all of them are “Prozac” happy. They always try to get you onboard which is greatly appreciated but nevertheless the grass always looks greener on the other side…

Funny, I commute on them every week too, and don't see my share of unhappy people....If they're irritable and stressed out, it ain't from the job!
 

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