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APAAD newsletter on Age 60/65

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Andy

12/13/2012
Joined
Nov 28, 2001
Posts
3,101
WHERE ARE WE ON 60 RIGHT NOW?

The 60 ARC is over. It was delivered to the FAA Administrator on November 29th.
Was it definitive? Absolutely not.

The ARC report contains a Pro and Con side, an Appendix that lists some (not all) supporting data, and an Executive Summary of the ARC. The Executive Summary is not definitive and contains point-counterpoint from the Pro-Con groups. Rather than directing any single course of action, it lays out the opposing sides of the issue. It identifies (but does not solve) a number of implementation issues. These issues obviously would impact some airlines or pilot groups more (or less) than others.

A pseudo vote was taken. It came down to six against change (the four ALPA reps [Delta, Fed Ex, ALPA, ExpressJet], as well as the APA and American Airlines reps). There were four in favor of change, those being APAAD, SWAPA, SWA and JetBlue. The rest were neutral.

The only agreed upon recommendation was that any change needed to be ‘prospective’ to preclude those already retired from coming back and attempting to reclaim seniority.

The FAA Administrator is not bound by any vote of the ARC. Its biased makeup certainly takes out of play any ‘vote’ results and, in any case, 6-4 is not a landslide.

Here’s where we stand:

The Administrator can stand pat or initiate a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking re 60/65. It seems she might do the NPRM. This is good – and bad. Good in that we are finally getting some action on the rule. Bad in that we had an NPRM back in the mid ‘90s and the FAA punted on change due to politics & an NPRM is not a sure thing; bad because an NPRM take a long time (1 ½ to 2 years); and bad because Democrats in Congress may back away from legislation and allow the FAA to ‘handle’ the issue.

In Congress the Republicans have not just punted, they dropped the ball entirely. The Democrats certainly didn’t help matters.

Unlike 2001 and 2003, we never got a vote on S. 65. This was due primarily to the partisan and poisonous atmosphere on the Hill in an election year. Republican leadership demanded that we guarantee 60 votes to block any Democrat filibuster. We couldn’t do that. Democrat leadership didn’t give assurances that they would let any vote go forward without a fight on behalf of ALPA, better known in Democrat offices as “The Union.”

Even though we knew we had 60+ votes, more support and co sponsors than we have ever had before, we got no vote.

Our legislation was attached to the Transportation Appropriations bill. That gave us hope that we would move forward with that money bill. Although this bill should have been voted on by the end of September it was not (money bills are supposed to be passed by September 30th). Congressional decisions were made with regard to the upcoming elections. They did not work to our advantage. We had every expectation that the Approps money bill would be voted on after the election or rolled into an ‘omnibus’ bill (the various money bills lumped together) and voted on as part of the greater whole. November came and went (so did Congress). No money bills were voted on.

Then came a lightning strike: Some members decided they would not support any money bills because they were loaded with pork (in all fairness, the pork extended to both sides of the congressional aisle). The Republicans thus are on the verge of punting almost a half-trillion dollars worth of spending bills to the Democrats in ’07. That has the added effect of keeping the Democrats occupied for a bit with spending bills, rather than other issues some Republicans are not in favor of.

To keep the government running, Congress is poised to pass a “Continuing Resolution”, wherein spending would continue at ’06 rates through a pre-determined date in ’07. That gives Congress time to re-craft, and vote on, the various money bills.

For us, the effect is that S.65 drops into oblivion, as legislation does not carry over into the next session of Congress.

We may still get lucky. Another lightning bolt may strike from the sky. Something may happen as Congress returns this week. Deals may be struck and posturing left behind in favor of accomplishments. Transp Approps may be passed. However, word from most sources is that the chances of that are very slim.

Early ’07 will see us back on the Hill, attempting to revive S. 65 and H.R. 65. We will look for sponsors and co-sponsors. Congress has to pass its money bills. We will attempt to have our legislation attached to pending money bills. We will meet with the new committee chairs and their staffs to solicit support.

We had some excellent progress on the Democrat side of the aisle. We will try to capitalize on that.

We had success in our grasp and partisan politics knocked our train off the tracks. It is incredibly unfair (unlucky?) to be so close and to have partisanship involved in something that is so non-partisan… yet that is exactly what happened.

We do, however, have the greatest weapon of all: ICAO and its Age 65 standard. Neither the Administrator nor Congress can be comfortable with or allow United States pilots to be second-class citizens in our own country.

We will keep pushing. We will succeed.

Paul Emens
Co-Founder, APAAD
 
I've noticed that Bert Yetman of ppf.org has not updated his newsletter since before the Nov elections. He's a good source of info from the pro-change crowd. His silence confirms to me that this is a dead issue.

The APAAD's hope that the Transportation Appropriations bill will pass is like betting on the Cubs to win the world series. Even if the Transportation Appropriations Bill comes to the floor, it HIGHLY likely to have the text of S 65 (a legislative amendment) stripped from the bill. Congress doesn't like to attach legislation to spending bills.

Bottom line: No change to age 60 rule anytime in the near future.
 
Andy,

Thanks for the PMs, posts and threads, not to mention all your hard work. It is very much appreciated. Probably by many more than you will hear from.

Thanks again,

AAflyer
 
Andy,

Thanks for the PMs, posts and threads, not to mention all your hard work. It is very much appreciated. Probably by many more than you will hear from.

Thanks again,

AAflyer

Ditto Andy!

(psst ... I know it's impolite to gloat and wish ill of others but I'm going to make an exception for UF and Klako ... :) :beer: :smash: :bawling: :crying: :puke: :uzi: )

BBB:D
 
Andy-

You will never know how many of us you kicked in the a$$ with your posts, your PMs, and all the good info. You certainly were the catalyst to get me all over my congressmen (and some other peoples congressmen as well). Thanks for that. Now, rest up, they'll be back next year. (Instead of enjoying retirement like sane people).

PIPE
 
Just thinking out loud, but I wonder if SWAPA would still be so much in favor of changing Age 60 if SWA were to suddenly stop growing?
 
Just thinking out loud, but I wonder if SWAPA would still be so much in favor of changing Age 60 if SWA were to suddenly stop growing?

I'll bet you a cold one they would not be, I would also bet you ANY LCC that had their growth stop would have a huge outcry from junior captains, and FOs who were against rainsing age 60. Not ALL, but many.

regards,

AA
 
Not all SWA pilots are in favor of raising the age, I can guarantee that. (Best guess, 50/50). Even with the current growth rate it would be interesting to see a vote on the issue with SWAPA and actually see what the numbers say.
 
Not all SWA pilots are in favor of raising the age, I can guarantee that. (Best guess, 50/50). Even with the current growth rate it would be interesting to see a vote on the issue with SWAPA and actually see what the numbers say.

Then SWAPA should definitely take a vote. They have a very good thing going in terms of attitude of the pilot group. It would be quite devisive if half, or more than half, of the group thought they were being taken for a ride by the 'vocal minority.'

The Pro-Change group doesn't want a vote for fear that they will be in the minority(likely), and current outside popular opinion is that a vast majority of pilots favor the change.

My recommendation for a vote applies to all pilot groups. ALPA did one about a year ago and the results were surprising to most, considering furloughees who'd paid dues in the past weren't permitted to vote(I'm not sure if guys on probation were either). It was, however, dissapointing to see ALPA not have a stance last week.
 
We are going to get a vote here at SWA soon, especially since we have over 25% of the pilot group that has never had the opportunity to vote on the issue. Us that want it to remain will be pleasantly surprised(IMHO)
 
Interesting stuff!

>>"The ARC report contains a Pro and Con side, an Appendix that lists some (not all) supporting data, and an Executive Summary of the ARC. The Executive Summary is not definitive and contains point-counterpoint from the Pro-Con groups. Rather than directing any single course of action, it lays out the opposing sides of the issue. It identifies (but does not solve) a number of implementation issues. These issues obviously would impact some airlines or pilot groups more (or less) than others."<<

The report is what they asked for...an analysis of the impact of changing the rule. There is an impact, despite the pro-change crowd's penchant for glossing over it.

>>"A pseudo vote was taken. It came down to six against change (the four ALPA reps [Delta, Fed Ex, ALPA, ExpressJet], as well as the APA and American Airlines reps). There were four in favor of change, those being APAAD, SWAPA, SWA and JetBlue. The rest were neutral."<<

Looks like it failed! If the vote had been the other way around, I think the APAAD would have crowed about it's "passage".

>>"The FAA Administrator is not bound by any vote of the ARC. Its biased makeup certainly takes out of play any ‘vote’ results and, in any case, 6-4 is not a landslide."<<

How about "mandate"? Some folks have considered closer votes to be just that.


>>"...Democrats in Congress may back away from legislation and allow the FAA to ‘handle’ the issue."<<

Horror! Politicians may allow the agency accountable for the regs to make the decision? What's next?....we let the MIL:ITARY decide what weapons systems it wants or doesn't want?

Can't have THAT! No sir!

Persuasive Writing 101, Chapter 1 "How To Contradict Yourself"

Write this:
>>"Republican leadership demanded that we guarantee 60 votes to block any Democrat filibuster. We couldn’t do that."<<

...and two lines later write this:
>>"Even though we knew we had 60+ votes, more support and co sponsors than we have ever had before, we got no vote."<<

>>"Democrat leadership didn’t give assurances that they would let any vote go forward without a fight on behalf of ALPA, better known in Democrat offices as “The Union.”<<

(neener, neener, neener!)

>>"That has the added effect of keeping the Democrats occupied for a bit with spending bills, rather than other issues some Republicans are not in favor of."<<

Congress = 3rd Graders in suits

>>"For us, the effect is that S.65 drops into oblivion, as legislation does not carry over into the next session of Congress."<<

Huzzah!

>>"We may still get lucky. Another lightning bolt may strike from the sky. Something may happen as Congress returns this week. Deals may be struck and posturing left behind in favor of accomplishments."<<

And the Vikings will win the Super Bowl!

The fat lady is singing on the cram-down legislation.

>>"We had success in our grasp and partisan politics knocked our train off the tracks. It is incredibly unfair (unlucky?) to be so close and to have partisanship involved in something that is so non-partisan… yet that is exactly what happened."<<

Notice how nobody ever calls themselves "partisan"? It's always the guys on the OTHER side that are "unreasonable".

>>"We do, however, have the greatest weapon of all: ICAO and its Age 65 standard. Neither the Administrator nor Congress can be comfortable with or allow United States pilots to be second-class citizens in our own country."<<

Unless...or course...it relates to safety. Or maybe, if there isn't a burning desire to mimic France and Madagascar...
 
We are going to get a vote here at SWA soon, especially since we have over 25% of the pilot group that has never had the opportunity to vote on the issue. Us that want it to remain will be pleasantly surprised(IMHO)


Cool,

While we're at it, had JetBlue had a vote? I noticed that both Swapa and Jblu voted for the change. I'd like to re-tally that vote after the workforce has spoken.

Let's see, the APAAD vote is worthless since they are encompassed by the other pilot groups that already voted. So we're already at 6-3...then, if SWAPA has a vote and it turns out like FJ1 thinks it would, we'd be at 7-2...hmmm, getting more defined by the second.

JetBlue guys, what say you?
 
Keep age 60!

I'd also like to thank you, Andy. About the only reason I visit flightinfo.com lately is to see what you have updated on the age 60 issue. I appreciate your informative and accurate posts.
 
And my thanks to everyone who got involved. I had initially been very worried about a change, but I think that a lot of flightinfoers conacted their representatives and slowly turned the tide on Capital Hill by making our Senators aware of S 65 being stuffed into HR 5576.
Fortunately, the elections also went our way. For that, we all owe a big debt of gratitude to Mark Foley, Duke Cunningham, Rick Santorum, Dennis Hastert, Conrad Burns, George Bush, Karl Rove, Michael J Fox (positive debt), and of course Rush Limbaugh. Rush, you might want to cut back on the OxyContin.
 
I'm a B6 pilot and I'm for changing the age 60 discrimination policy, but I'm only 1 vote out of about 1600.
 
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And my thanks to everyone who got involved. I had initially been very worried about a change, but I think that a lot of flightinfoers conacted their representatives and slowly turned the tide on Capital Hill by making our Senators aware of S 65 being stuffed into HR 5576.
Fortunately, the elections also went our way. For that, we all owe a big debt of gratitude to Mark Foley, Duke Cunningham, Rick Santorum, Dennis Hastert, Conrad Burns, George Bush, Karl Rove, Michael J Fox (positive debt), and of course Rush Limbaugh. Rush, you might want to cut back on the OxyContin.

Good work ANDY!

I might point out that Andy is a fellow UAL pilot (on an LOA) so for all you people that love to bash the UAL pilot group you might want to take that into account.
 

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