AWA NC poke in the eye

[trainer8]

I copied and edited this from the Regional board. It bears repeating here:

The AWA Pilot's elected leaders believe that if you are a Regional Airline Pilot, you are not qualified to be a Major Airline pilot. In their submitted brief to the Arbitrator, they suggest that pilots who became US Airways Seniority List Pilots by US Airways Management and by declaration of the AAA MEC are of some lesser qualification and therefore should not be on that seniority list. The inference is that those specific pilot's qualifications would not get them in the door for a "normal" interview.

"CEL pilots were hired by the wholly-owned commuter carriers that feed into the US Airways system. Major carriers typically require significantly greater flight experience than regional carriers. The CEL pilots that the East Committee wishes to place on the US Airways seniority list were not hired by US Airways (other than through their claim to MDA positions), and there is no evidence that they would have been qualified for pilot positions at US Airways."In the Matter of the Seniority Integration of THE PILOTS OF AMERICA WEST AIRLINES and THE PILOTS OF US AIRWAYS--AWA Brief, page 8. bold face my emphasis.

Of course, that is bull excrement as many pilots from the regional airline ranks are hired by major airlines, including AWA. While the charge refers to regional pilots that flowed up to MDA from PDT/ALG, it also implies that regional pilots are of a less caliber then others. F. Lee Baily, then counsel for the Allied Pilots Association, made a similar comment during the Eagle Flow through procedings in the 1990's. The APA issued an apology for his comment.

I will have "specific" words for the next AWA pilot who requests the jumpseat.

T8

 

[LoveGun]

T8,

This letter is in reference to the Piedmont pilots that took slots at mid atlantic and then when mid atlantic closed they got mainline seniority numbers. These former piedmont pilots then got captain positions at PSA under the J4J protocol. Pretty good deal for them...two year FO at piedmont gets to leapfrog five year FOs at PSA and take a captain position and also gets recall rights at mainline.

 

[AA717driver]

T8--Chill out. It's just integration rhetoric.

Kind of like when APA called TWA pilots "hotdog vendors". HEY! That's BULL$H!T! Those pr!cks!







TC

 

[TWA Dude]

Trainer8, don't get into a snit about this. Most AWA pilots came from the regionals. It's not about how qualified a pilot is (everyone knows you guys can fly) but about the whole hiring process. Somebody who isn't at a major technically hasn't "proven" that they can be at one. The CEL guys are on the list to stay.

 

[80for80]

I copied and edited this from the Regional board. It bears repeating here:

The AWA Pilot's elected leaders believe that if you are a Regional Airline Pilot, you are not qualified to be a Major Airline pilot. In their submitted brief to the Arbitrator, they suggest that pilots who became US Airways Seniority List Pilots by US Airways Management and by declaration of the AAA MEC are of some lesser qualification and therefore should not be on that seniority list. The inference is that those specific pilot's qualifications would not get them in the door for a "normal" interview.

"CEL pilots were hired by the wholly-owned commuter carriers that feed into the US Airways system. Major carriers typically require significantly greater flight experience than regional carriers. The CEL pilots that the East Committee wishes to place on the US Airways seniority list were not hired by US Airways (other than through their claim to MDA positions), and there is no evidence that they would have been qualified for pilot positions at US Airways."In the Matter of the Seniority Integration of THE PILOTS OF AMERICA WEST AIRLINES and THE PILOTS OF US AIRWAYS--AWA Brief, page 8. bold face my emphasis.

Of course, that is bull excrement as many pilots from the regional airline ranks are hired by major airlines, including AWA. While the charge refers to regional pilots that flowed up to MDA from PDT/ALG, it also implies that regional pilots are of a less caliber then others. F. Lee Baily, then counsel for the Allied Pilots Association, made a similar comment during the Eagle Flow through procedings in the 1990's. The APA issued an apology for his comment.

I will have "specific" words for the next AWA pilot who requests the jumpseat.

T8

It better be "Welcome aboard".

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Holy Smokes 80!

We Agree.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

This business is all luck, some get lucky, some make there luck others get ********************.

 

[iflyhigh]

trainer8

Relax...If you were an AWA pilot, you would want your union to get the best possible position for you, even if that includes trying to get flow through pilots excluded from the seniority lists.

These were not meant to be slams against regional guys, just postering on the negiotators side.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Lucky

This business is all luck, some get lucky, some make there luck others get ********************.

I second the idea that this business is all luck.

 

[LearLove]

T8,

This letter is in reference to the Piedmont pilots that took slots at mid atlantic and then when mid atlantic closed they got mainline seniority numbers. These former piedmont pilots then got captain positions at PSA under the J4J protocol. Pretty good deal for them...two year FO at piedmont gets to leapfrog five year FOs at PSA and take a captain position and also gets recall rights at mainline.

All former ALG or PDT guys that went to MDA were hired prior to 9/11/2001, infact the most junior (VE) DOH is around DEC99 or Jan 2000. The most junior ALG guy that is J4J at PSA has a Sept 1999 DOH. Where do you get 2 year PDT fo's? All the FO's at PSA are junior to any former ALG guy who went to PSA as a Capt.

 

[LearLove]

I second the idea that this business is all luck.

I'll third that

 

[ferlo]

This quote has nothing to do with quality of pilots. It's a seniority integration argument. Forget about it.

 

[olympus593]

Trainer8, don't get into a snit about this. Most AWA pilots came from the regionals. It's not about how qualified a pilot is (everyone knows you guys can fly) but about the whole hiring process. Somebody who isn't at a major technically hasn't "proven" that they can be at one. The CEL guys are on the list to stay.

We haven't proven that we can be a major pilot. In the last 20 years ALG/PDT/PSA has not had any accident, of many did mainline had?
Why don't you get in my shoes for one day and fly 8 legs in S**T weather flying 20 year old worn out airplane with 500 F/O, where you can't get fuel, can get bags, can't get any ramper to get your GPU, the realease is always wrong, you had 4 swap, you finish your day at 11pm in the Fog after flying a circle vor in HHH with a 3000 foot runways, with an MEL A/P and MEL Yaw Damper.
Until you can do that day in day out you haven't proven that you are worthy of being a regional pilot, so stick your arrogance where the sun doesn't shine.

 

[trainer8]

T8,

This letter is in reference to the Piedmont pilots that took slots at mid atlantic and then when mid atlantic closed they got mainline seniority numbers. These former piedmont pilots then got captain positions at PSA under the J4J protocol. Pretty good deal for them...two year FO at piedmont gets to leapfrog five year FOs at PSA and take a captain position and also gets recall rights at mainline.

If you re-read my post, you will see that I acknowledge the context of the brief. Check your chronology, LoveGun. They were on the list before the Merger was announced. AWA leadership asserts it as a ploy to subvert seniority intergration. They acknowledge the timeline in their documentation.

Besides, that's not my point. If what YOU imply is correct, you are stating that the PDT pilots were unqualified pilots for the positions. Do you want to stand by that?

I'll reiterate by a quote:

"Major carriers typically require significantly greater flight experience than regional carriers."

That is a generalization of what the AWA think is typical. The implication in context is more than just a statement of a fact. In the context of the brief, it implies that the pilots were not qualified. The opinion is condescending to regional pilots in general, regardless of the context.

The pilots awarded positions at MDA were awarded those position by seniority on the CEL. The most senior was mid 1980s and the most junior pilot there was a 2000 DOH. AWA implies they and other regional pilots as a whole are sub-qualified, pilots. Simply not true, and they know it. I personally know several pilots on their property who were regional airline pilots. Yeesh, they grew out of being a regional carrier themselves.

T8

 

[Tank]

In that case, I guess its ok.

 

[Whine Lover]

Yes.

They are correct.

If you are a Commuter Pilot you are lower than feces.

Especially if you are a "30 something", PFT, Commuter Pilot.

Then you should just KILL yourself.

Merry Christmas and Death To Extremists,

YKW

 

[xanderman]

okay...?

We haven't proven that we can be a major pilot. In the last 20 years ALG/PDT/PSA has not had any accident, of many did mainline had?
Why don't you get in my shoes for one day and fly 8 legs in S**T weather flying 20 year old worn out airplane with 500 F/O, where you can't get fuel, can get bags, can't get any ramper to get your GPU, the realease is always wrong, you had 4 swap, you finish your day at 11pm in the Fog after flying a circle vor in HHH with a 3000 foot runways, with an MEL A/P and MEL Yaw Damper.
Until you can do that day in day out you haven't proven that you are worthy of being a regional pilot, so stick your arrogance where the sun doesn't shine.

Thank goodness I will not have to stick my arrogance where the sun doesn't shine.

Ya know what? I have been there and done that so what's your point? Most pilots here at AWA came from the regionals. We all did that crap so stop your crying. Go through the interview and get hired like everybody else and you too can have a flying job where everyday is sunny and warm with straight-in visual approaches. And of course we never swap a/c because we never have any mx problems let alone MEL's. Oh! I almost forgot to mention everyday you finish no later than 3pm.
Andy

 

[olympus593]

Thank goodness I will not have to stick my arrogance where the sun doesn't shine.

Ya know what? I have been there and done that so what's your point? Most pilots here at AWA came from the regionals. We all did that crap so stop your crying. Go through the interview and get hired like everybody else and you too can have a flying job where everyday is sunny and warm with straight-in visual approaches. And of course we never swap a/c because we never have any mx problems let alone MEL's. Oh! I almost forgot to mention everyday you finish no later than 3pm.
Andy

Your arrogance is still there, I don't have to go through the interview like everybody else because we took a 10% pay cut in exchange for helping Us Air survive and Job opportunities at US Airways, as our contract say, But I guess since you are mainline you also have the right to change it because you don't like it...

 

[FR8mastr]

trainer8

Relax...If you were an AWA pilot, you would want your union to get the best possible position for you, even if that includes trying to get flow through pilots excluded from the seniority lists.

These were not meant to be slams against regional guys, just postering on the negiotators side.

That's all fine except in order to "get the best" for their side, they are trying to remove these guys from the list! So basically, in order to prevent up to 90 very junior guys (at Airways, all their dates of hire are mid to late 04) from even being considered in the integration they are trying to have them removed and thrown to the curb! Destroying the careers of one pilot to try and help another one is total BS. This goes way beyond fighting seniority.

I would agree if they were just trying to get the guys stapled or something, but to ruin their lives? There is no excuse! those on the NC are a disgrace to the profession. There is a word for those that would have pilots removed in order to help themselves.... We all know what that word is.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Why don't you get in my shoes for one day and fly 8 legs in S**T weather flying 20 year old worn out airplane with 500 F/O, where you can't get fuel, can get bags, can't get any ramper to get your GPU, the realease is always wrong, you had 4 swap, you finish your day at 11pm in the Fog after flying a circle vor in HHH with a 3000 foot runways, with an MEL A/P and MEL Yaw Damper.

Been there, done that. Dude, post that on the Freight Board and they'll call you a friggin' wussy. Do all that in the middle of the night and then unload your Beech 99 and reload for the next leg. Ramper? What's that? A/P Never heard of it. FO what does that do?

 

[TWA Dude]

We haven't proven that we can be a major pilot.

Sorry if my plain English response was hard to understand. When I wrote "It's not about how qualified a pilot is (everyone knows you guys can fly) but about the whole hiring process" I should've typed more slowly. A pilot sends a resume to an airline to tell them what your experience is. If you haven't flown for a major you don't have that experience yet. That's all we're saying.

Until you can do that day in day out you haven't proven that you are worthy of being a regional pilot, so stick your arrogance where the sun doesn't shine.

Good thing I don't have anything to prove to you but I flew at two different regionals and you can read my turboprop type ratings to your left.

 

[Green]

"CEL pilots were hired by the wholly-owned commuter carriers that feed into the US Airways system. Major carriers typically require significantly greater flight experience than regional carriers. The CEL pilots that the East Committee wishes to place on the US Airways seniority list were not hired by US Airways (other than through their claim to MDA positions), and there is no evidence that they would have been qualified for pilot positions at US Airways."In the Matter of the Seniority Integration of THE PILOTS OF AMERICA WEST AIRLINES and THE PILOTS OF US AIRWAYS--AWA Brief, page 8. bold face my emphasis.



I will have "specific" words for the next AWA pilot who requests the jumpseat

T8

Do you know where one could find the rest of that AWA Brief to the arbitrator?

Also I'm an AWA pilot, just curious what your 'specific' words would be to me if I requested the jumpseat? Do you think any of us line pilots are out to 'get you?' Do you think we bust every US Airways pilot's b#lls when he/she tries to jumpseat on AWA? 99 percent of the time they are treated well on our flights and they want to staple virtually each and every one of us. Taking frustrations out with the jumpseat just hurts us all. Could you imagine trying to jumpseat throughout the country if people vented this way? Some guys wouldn't take mesa, republic, CHQ, DAL, AWA, SKYWest, Pinnacle, etc depending on their idea of who 'screwed things up' or which airline group is full of #holes.

It's all negotiating my friend. Our Mec and in particular our merger committee is paid a full time salary to work exclusively on protecting the career expectations of AWA pilots. They are not paid to help CEL pilots. I know that sounds aweful and insensitive but US Airways has chosen to play hardball. They want to effectively staple our airline after being acquired by us. So we are, and rightfully so in my opinion, responding with some hard rhetoric of our own.

 

[Gofish]

Depressing this is.

 

[FR8mastr]

Do you know where one could find the rest of that AWA Brief to the arbitrator?

It's all negotiating my friend. Our Mec and in particular our merger committee is paid a full time salary to work exclusively on protecting the career expectations of AWA pilots. They are not paid to help CEL pilots. I know that sounds aweful and insensitive but US Airways has chosen to play hardball. They want to effectively staple our airline after being acquired by us. So we are, and rightfully so in my opinion, responding with some hard rhetoric of our own.

Does your career expectation depend on having the very bottom of the Airways list eliminated? Again, your full time protectors are trying to eliminate pilots, not just make you senior to them.

The Airways negotiators are asking for DOH, that would not eliminate anyone!
Elimination is not rhetoric. I cant believe you guys actually equate eliminating pilots the same as asking for DOH in negotiations. That is the exact "Union" mentality that has put ALPA in the dubious position its in today.

Just in case you dont know, The EX CEL pilots that are on the Airways list have been there since 2004. Long before the West "saved Airways".

 

[AA717driver]

Your arrogance is still there, I don't have to go through the interview like everybody else because we took a 10% pay cut in exchange for helping Us Air survive and Job opportunities at US Airways, as our contract say, But I guess since you are mainline you also have the right to change it because you don't like it...

Ok, sympathy is gone. STFU. A lot of mainline (USAir and elsewhere) took a 100% pay cut after 9/11 and they started in this business while you were trying to look up Susie's dress in 6th grade!

Go the F#@K to the end of the line if you're gonna b!tch!

Geez, I'm constantly amazed at the number of people who think they invented the aviation business. TC

 

[Green]

Does your career expectation depend on having the very bottom of the Airways list eliminated? Again, your full time protectors are trying to eliminate pilots, not just make you senior to them.

The Airways negotiators are asking for DOH, that would not eliminate anyone!
Elimination is not rhetoric. I cant believe you guys actually equate eliminating pilots the same as asking for DOH in negotiations. That is the exact "Union" mentality that has put ALPA in the dubious position its in today.

Just in case you dont know, The EX CEL pilots that are on the Airways list have been there since 2004. Long before the West "saved Airways".

I see where you're coming from. But just to play devils advocate if the arbitrator did award DOH with fences or something then we would have a situation where CEL pilots would upgrade at the new Us Airways before many AWA pilots. These CEL pilots would be guys/gals who have never flown or even interviewed at mainline. If you are going to be considered mainline then why shouldn't we include our hiring pool on our list? They were guranteed a job at mainline just as the CEL pilots were guranteed a flow through to mainline.

Again I am only trying to demonstrate the concerns of junior AWA pilots. I for one would think it to be absurd if a current CEL pilot is senior to any AWA pilot 20 years down the road. That scenario is not entirely impossible if the arbitrator awarded something to the effect of no bump/no flush but DOH once the fences are eliminated. Furthermore, in the recent 190 arbitration the award was based on the size of each pilot group. AWA was given 33% of the vacancies. If you divide AWA total pilots by AAA total pilots you get 33%. So just having CEL pilots on the list directly impacts AWA pilots as it fattens the AAA list...

I don't want to eliminate anyone but I also don't want to get screwed.

 

[LearLove]

why can't we (aaa/awa) just come to an agreement where the former CEL guys just get tacked to the bottom? Thats all I though we were after anyway.

 

[HA25]

I will have "specific" words for the next AWA pilot who requests the jumpseat.

T8

Keep the Jumpseat out of it... that's not a place to wage battle (unless they're a scab).

 

[Green]

why can't we (aaa/awa) just come to an agreement where the former CEL guys just get tacked to the bottom? Thats all I though we were after anyway.

That is certainly not all that you (US Airways) are after. AAA is asking for DOH which, if awarded, would mean 90 or so CEL pilots would be senior to over a hundred AWA pilots.

 

[Contract]

I like the guy who is CRYING... "WO IS ME"........Funny how we all forget the drudgery and the time spent waking up on the side of a bed in the day feeling like shister. Wow.....Hard Times in deed....God Speed Brother. Stay focused on what ever it is you want....If its the Dream, then get it on. Thats what were all trying to do here. Good Luck Knuckle knee. Im sorry, I couldnt resist. Now git it on Shister, and quit the crying.