News 8 Dallas: report on pilot fatigue, pointed out Mesa!

[VABB]

You are a TOOL!!!! How many regional interviews did you fail?

I never applied to any of them.

 

[80for80]

I never applied to any of them.

I bet you washed out of training after the sim after it ate your lunch.

 

[80for80]

I never applied to any of them.

I bet you washed out of training after the sim ate your lunch.

 

[VABB]

I bet you washed out of training after the sim ate your lunch.

I didn't have enough student loan debt to apply.

 

[80for80]

You are still a major TOOLBOX!!! I guarantee you I'll make it to the majors before you do.

 

[VABB]

You are still a major TOOLBOX!!! I guarantee you I'll make it to the majors before you do.

I'm already there.

 

[80for80]

Jet Airways is not a major.

 

[pgcfii2002]

Isn't it funny that the media seems to always put these stories out the day before Thanksgiving??

 

[Soverytired]

not condoning what the company does in any way but even mesa has a pretty good safety record....

There are enough "backups" in the ATC system that prevent errors caused by pilots fatigued from campovers from causing disasters. So far . . ..

TCAS, autopilots, ATC computers that "buzz" whenever a "deal" is about to take place, GPWS screaming "climb!" . . .etch.

Sadly, it is the fatigued pilot who misreads a clearance, misses an altitude decision, blows through a fix who's career will suffer permanently who is more likely to pay the price than the actual passengers. However, this is relying primarily on the "backups" to catch errors, not on the pilot who's job is to prevent them from happening in the first place.

Campovers are living on borrowed time . . . anyone who flies these regularly at Mesa knows its just a matter of time . . .

 

[Soverytired]

And how about the video that was referenced in this link? The pilot talking about being so fatigued that he wasn't sure if he could handle an emergency?? What business does he have being in a cockpit with that attitude. If he's too tired, it's called a FATIGUE CALL to crew scheduling.

.

This is the company answer, of course. "It's legal . .. and the pilot can always call in fatigued."

However, while our operational manuals clearly call for the pilot to call in fatigue when tired, in the very next sentence they require the pilot to "conduct his personal time in such a way" to keep this from happening . . .and these calls "when excessive" can be grounds for termination.

I would also point out that any fatigue call to crew tracking will IMMEDIATELY be followed up with a call to the chief pilot. This is the ONLY place in our manuals that specifies this. A bit of not-so-subtle intimidation, eh?

ALSO: " Fatigue may not be forecast" .. . so if I'm on my 4th camping trip with a 3 hour sleep, I'm not allowed to fall fatigued until the last second (re: gotta take the nap first) . . . stranding everyone on the first morning flight at the outstation. Another bit of subtle pressure to tempt a tired pilot to just "push through it" and finish the last leg to get home and avoid the whole potential discipline thing.

Again, the onus is placed squarely on the pilot, and the fatigue call is not so simple in the real world.

 

[www.]

10:00 news reported on pilot fatigue in the regional level. Showed Mesa headquarters and spoke with some lady there i think named Dana Mcooley or something to that effect. Two pilots that had their face blacked out and voice changed gave some opinions that were not good. "I was so tired I just a wanted to get home and sleep, I did not care if there were maintenance issues, I just wanted to sleep. Talks about standup overnights. One pilot said "the regulations are written in blood and that is what it will take to get them changed."

Said Southwest ended standup overnights 10 years ago, but it is still going on in the regionals.

They must be doing a series. I tried to find the story, but only found this poster Nov. 9th


http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/d...ories/wfaa061108_mo_tiredpilots.1b6739d3.html

Mesa's FAA Program Manager, CL, is based at the DFW Air Carrier office. Maybe he saw it.

 

[VABB]

Again, the onus is placed squarely on the pilot, and the fatigue call is not so simple in the real world.

I understand what you are saying, and I'm not trying to flame here. But, the safety and well-being of the passengers is also placed squarely on the pilots. If the pilot is too fatigued to fly then there is no reason to put the passengers' safety at risk. If the fatigue is due to the poor quality of the schedule (i.e., CDO's), then the pilot group should make a habit of calling in fatigue for these trips. Enough pilots do it consistently and that issue may go away because nobody will be available to fly the trips in the first place.

If a company intimidates an employee to work in an environment where safety is blatantly compromised, that company isn't worth working for in the first place. Again, why do people continue to put up with those kinds of conditions for such low pay?

 

[siucavflight]

Isn't it funny that the media seems to always put these stories out the day before Thanksgiving??

I know what you are thinking, and you are right. However I am just glad that someone told our story for once, I wonder what the public thinks when they find out that the pilots are starting out at 18,000 per year.

 

[Espalda Mojado]

I know what you are thinking, and you are right. However I am just glad that someone told our story for once, I wonder what the public thinks when they find out that the pilots are starting out at 18,000 per year.

They think that pilots love the job so much that half of them would do it for free. They also think that everything is automated so the pilots are redundant anyway.

Also, they hope that the cheap airfare stays, so that they can take their kids down to Orlando to see Mickey again next year.

 

[No one]

I'll get torched for this post but I could care less.

What are any of you doing about the fatigue issue as regional pilots? Bitching on FI ain't gonna fix your problems. Before anyone asks, I'm not a pilot. I just intruded on your sacred spot to ask the question. No flame intended. I always see a lot of complaining but no proposed solutions.

Happy Thanksgiving.

 

[Espalda Mojado]

The first thing they should do is to fire all of the dispatchers and crew schedulers at places like Pinnacle and MESA.

 

[HA25]

truth is guys, the reason Mesa and the other can do these CDO's so often and get away with it is the pilot groups of said airlines are inept. Why is that you ask? Because 4/5th of the pilot group couldn't care less about the long run and fighting for a good contract as they've got their eyes set on American, United or Southwest. In the end, as my signature says, if you want to know why you're job sucks, look in the mirror.

While his delivery is not the best (he must have failed political science in school), a lot of what VABB has to say is true, if it bothers you to hear it, that makes it even more true.

 

[No one]

The first thing they should do is to fire all of the dispatchers and crew schedulers at places like Pinnacle and MESA.

Nice try, Espalda. Throw blame all over the place. Typical American solution: Do not, under any circumstances, take responsibility for anything.

Sadly, still no proposed solution. Anyone else?

 

[Sam Snead]

...the pilot group should make a habit of calling in fatigue for these trips.

You first.

These poor pilots are just trying to survive their go-round with [crappy airline]. History shows that they would rather avoid a carpet dance for calling in fatigued than attempt to influence the company. Really... how often do people call in fatigued?

As long as the average longevity in the given is company is < 5 years, it'll stay this way.

 

[suupah]

How many mainline airline pilots do you see on youtube.com filming themselves at work and being all giddy about it. i.e., I want a professinal up front, not some punk-kid who thinks it's "cool" to be a pilot.

The commuter airlines treat their people like crap and it shows. Look at some of these threads on this board. People complaining because they have no time and money to eat. So they show up to work hungry. Others talking about fatigue and sleeping on the airplanes. No thanks, I'll take my business elsewhere.

judging by the number of fat slobs i see in pilot uniforms these days i would say they have plenty of money to eat.

 

[HA25]

judging by the number of fat slobs i see in pilot uniforms these days i would say they have plenty of money to eat.

I have to admit, that the lowering of standards to "be a pilot" that were championed by the feminists and ADA supporters that re-defined what it took to "control" an aircraft and removed any height/weight or vision requirements haven't done much to improve our professions' standing with the public. In the end, if a 300lb, woman with 20/200 vision can get an ATP and go fly for an airline, who can't??

the AOPA mantra of "Everyone can be a pilot" has come to roost, and now we've got a flood of pilots for ever seat in an airplane, and in the end when Supply far exceed Demand, price drops thru the floor... Price being your wage.

So if you want to lay "some" blame on our wages and working conditions, look at the lowering of standards, and the PC movement that allowed for 4'10 women and 4F men to get 1st Class medicals and pass (one time stringent) airline physicals.

 

[Espalda Mojado]

Nice try, Espalda. Throw blame all over the place. Typical American solution: Do not, under any circumstances, take responsibility for anything.

Sadly, still no proposed solution. Anyone else?

Forget the CEOs, especially at places like PCL, the dispatchers are the lackeys who work for management and against the pilots. Take them out, and management will have nobody to do the dirty work.

 

[ReportCanoa]

In the end, if a 300lb, woman with 20/200 vision can get an ATP and go fly for an airline, who can't??

We have a few who resemble that remark. When one of them was hobbling around pregnant, I thought I might vomit.

 

[Espalda Mojado]

Remember, woman have smaller brain than man!

 

[ReportCanoa]

Remember, woman have smaller brain than man!

I am reminded of that every time I arrive at home.

 

[HA25]

We have a few who resemble that remark. When one of them was hobbling around pregnant, I thought I might vomit.

Joking aside, I've had two kids with my wife, and having watched my sister have 3, I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt, that a woman that is "with child" is both mentally and physically not fit to be in the cockpit. The sad reality is that the political correctness in our culture has overrun the safety first mentality of our profession with an opportunity first mentality.

 

[Soverytired]

Agreed. And I've made my fair share of fatigue calls . . but not, perphaps, as many as I should. Who wants to be "that guy" who keeps stranding planes in the middle of nowhere? Who wants to do the carpet dance trying to explain why you're the only one who can't hack that CDO?

As for "unified action" (which could be constured as a job action, after all) . . . I know of only one CDO that disappeared because of it. It was a night trip, followed by a reduced rest IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DAY, followed by a CDO. Absolutely brutal. It was so bad that the chief pilot actually put out a memo stating that if awarded this shift, a pilot could "opt out", no harm/no foul. Lots of fatigue calls anyway, so it disappeared.


Knotty problem. Solution: Management that treats it's pilots like human f'ing beings (Southwest, anyone?). Baring that, an act of Congress or the FAA.

I'm not hopeful for either.

I understand what you are saying, and I'm not trying to flame here. But, the safety and well-being of the passengers is also placed squarely on the pilots. If the pilot is too fatigued to fly then there is no reason to put the passengers' safety at risk. If the fatigue is due to the poor quality of the schedule (i.e., CDO's), then the pilot group should make a habit of calling in fatigue for these trips. Enough pilots do it consistently and that issue may go away because nobody will be available to fly the trips in the first place.

 

[HA25]

Knotty problem. Solution: Management that treats it's pilots like human f'ing beings (Southwest, anyone?). Baring that, an act of Congress or the FAA.

I'm not hopeful for either.

Here's an idea..

Maybe if a good number of the pilots at your airline all anonymously call the FAA Aviation Safety Hotline and explain the pressure on them to NOT CALL IN FATIGUED and the culture at your airline, SOMEONE from the FAA will actually care?

it's worth a try.. here's the number, share it with your Captains and FO's..

800-255-1111

 

[V-1]

I'll take a CDO/Highspeed/nap/illegal any day over flying six legs during a 15 hour duty day.

The problem I have is with regional airlines who pay so poorly their pilots need to work second jobs to maintain an acceptable standard of living for their families. There's your untold safety story.

 

[HA25]

I'll take a CDO/Highspeed/nap/illegal any day over flying six legs during a 15 hour duty day.

Both should be outlawed.. period.