PBS of airlines other than CAL

[KozzyCFI]

As many of you are probably already aware, CAL switched to PBS about three months ago. Our system, designed by Carmen/Jepp, is very complicated and seems to be creating many headaches among our pilot group. It operates off of the "bid group" idea. Knowing that there are many other systems out there, I was wondering if you could tell us CAL guys a little about how your systems operate and whether or not you are satisfied with your new schedules compared to the old paper-bid method.

Thanks a bunch!

 

[Palomino]

latest union blastmail shows severe disappointment in the PBS system...specifically the delayed release of bid awards yesterday. a threat to revert back to the old form of line bidding via bid packet was stated.

wouldn't that be wonderful?! bring back the old system. it works dandy.

 

[ils2minimums]

All AAers out there need to pay particularly close attention to this thread. I was recently told during an email exchange with a base chair that since he'd lived under PBS and I hadn't, his opinion on the subject trumped mine... I've garnered the crappy opinion I have of PBS by talking with over a dozen of my friends who currently fly under this system...

Sure, there will be a few guys who thinks it's the cat's meow, but in my experience, the vast majority of opinions have been that it's a win-win for the company and the pilots lose, period.

 

[BID]

PBS at CAL is sooooooo bad!, especially when compared to the old system. This is a huge downturn in our quality of life. You are talking about guys flying approx. 88-90 hour months with very little recourse to swap a trip or drop a turn.

Reserve coverage is always, below mins and there are very little open time trips to swap to.

I talk to senior guys and junior guys who are very upset with PBS at CAL. I have yet to talk to someone that is happy with it. Now should that tell ya something?

 

[StarChecker]

We've used NavTech for about 2 years at CHQ. Like most other things...it pays to be in the top 1/3 of a base. You can get pretty much any day off you want. But if you're in the bottom 2/3....not so much.

Online trip trades are supposedly coming soon...we're not holding our breath because...well...it's CHQ.

I was #10 F/O in base before I upgraded and always had at least 17 days off every month and I bid out-and-backs living in base and pretty much got them.

The other problem is you really have to know all the nuances of how the system assigns trips based on your bid. If you screw up...you could get the most horrendous schedule ever with nothing you asked for and you could be #1 in base. And that's it..too bad...you f-ed up. Better luck next month.

So if you go PBS...READ THE MANUAL and insist the company train you well on bidding and how the system works. I like PBS for the ability to get specific days off...even if you're kinda junior. But I hate how complicated it is...that might be just our system or that I'm not so bright. But it's a headache learning the intricate details of how the system creates a line. Especially in the beginning...you may have a month or two of crap while you figure out how the system works.

All in all...at least at CHQ...I see senior guys getting less days off the last year or so...might be PBS...might be the company f-ing with us as negotiations start in a few months. That's another thing...the company can tweak the parameters of the program...causing headaches for us. Less days off...less hours...even for senior people. They screw with it every month and that also sucks.

Most people...myself included are not happy with it.

 

[JohnQ]

At DAL we have had NavTech for a year now, and I know very very few pilots who would rather go back to Line of Time bidding (although to be fair we get serious headaches over the months of Nov and Dec). The key is: you MUST have an agreement with the company allowing for union oversight of the bid award process, and you must have a good education process prior to going "live" with PBS. If you don't you are just opening up a huge hole that the company could throw you through.

NavTech's system is so far superior to the line of time system we used to have that I could spend a long time just detailing why. Suffice it to say that I had to go through all sorts of hoops with the line bidding, plus all the "after the bid" adjustments we used to do, just to get a worse result than I get on my first try with PBS. I am middle of the pack seniority-wise also.

Last, I have never understood why the same pilots who don't trust most management in most issues don't have a problem with their mgmt side of the house determining what lines they could bid on, when there are limitless possibilities.

The key is always have the union be an integral part of the PBS vendor selection, education, and implementation process.

 

[IAHERJ]

At DAL we have had NavTech for a year now, and I know very very few pilots who would rather go back to Line of Time bidding (although to be fair we get serious headaches over the months of Nov and Dec). The key is: you MUST have an agreement with the company allowing for union oversight of the bid award process, and you must have a good education process prior to going "live" with PBS. If you don't you are just opening up a huge hole that the company could throw you through.

NavTech's system is so far superior to the line of time system we used to have that I could spend a long time just detailing why. Suffice it to say that I had to go through all sorts of hoops with the line bidding, plus all the "after the bid" adjustments we used to do, just to get a worse result than I get on my first try with PBS. I am middle of the pack seniority-wise also.

Last, I have never understood why the same pilots who don't trust most management in most issues don't have a problem with their mgmt side of the house determining what lines they could bid on, when there are limitless possibilities.

The key is always have the union be an integral part of the PBS vendor selection, education, and implementation process.

JohnQ,

I'd be very interested in hearing how you submit your monthly bid entries through NAV TECH. Our union is very involved in our PBS and we had many paid(by the company) pilots holding class on an hourly basis for months and still operate a help line, have DVD tuturials etc. and it still is a pain in the rear. I've spent all morning trading etc. but our company decides these terribly conservative arbitrary staffing levels for reserves not allowing me to trade trips except on days I'm already flying. It is very frustrating!!! I did get a 767-400 trip to AMS for a long layover where I can work off some frustration Our bid group process is as complicated as anything I've seen and I'd rather take a sim check once a week rather than bid this way once a month.

IAHERJ

 

[JohnQ]

JohnQ,
I've spent all morning trading etc. but our company decides these terribly conservative arbitrary staffing levels for reserves not allowing me to trade trips except on days I'm already flying. It is very frustrating!!! I did get a 767-400 trip to AMS for a long layover where I can work off some frustration Our bid group process is as complicated as anything I've seen and I'd rather take a sim check once a week rather than bid this way once a month.

IAHERJ

It sounds like you have a similar situation to us. However, I do want to emphasize that your reserve staffing levels have nothing at all to do with PBS. Whether PBS or line bidding, if you are undermanned in reserves (and thus can't trade, etc) then you are undermanned.

As for why I like PBS. Well, I must have every Tues and Wed off, don't like redeyes, must have portions of other days off for various reasons, like layovers here and there, etc. With line of time bidding, I might see a line with all the days off I need...except there might be a four-day trip leaving on the last Monday of the month. Guess what? I wouldn't bid that line due to ONE trip on it. Conversely, there might be a line with all the days off I needed, but with poor trips. I would reluctantly bid that. Why not, within constraints of your contract and seniority, bid the days off you want AND the trips you want, not hampered by lines that the COMPANY pre-built.

Of course as this thread demonstrates, it is all in the implementation phase. And some airlines, such as SWA, clearly demonstrate that it is possible to have just as much, if not more, flexibility with prebuilt lines as with PBS.

If you want particulars, PM me.

 

[IAHERJ]

Thanks,

That's our problem. PBS allows us less reserve coverage yet the company has increased min reserve level in what I believe is an attempt to cover the suspected higher sick call activity associated with the PBS implimentation process. I agree with your reasoning and in theory it should be better however a combination of our(I speak for myself) lack of knowledge of the system combined with solution constraints that are controlled by the company have resulted in a normally content pilot group to become outraged. I wouldn't want to be a schedular for the next 2 weeks at CAL.

Have a great one and thanks for the post.

IAHERJ

 

[j3ben]

I asked Santa for paper bidding back at CAL to improve my QOL. I am flying more at CAL than I did at the regionals!