Age 60 Rule Almost Gone

[Tejas-Jet]

I don't belive that the over 60 group has thought just how hard the medical exams are going to be, or what kind of cost it will be out of pocket.

Why would it be any different from what over age 60 pilots do now for a flight physical? What about pilot with waivers? Remember that there are pilots over age 60 flying as CFI's, cropdusters, aerial photography, etc....types of flying that demands much more than Part 121 flying.

L-NAV's, V-NAV's, Autothrottles, Auto-pilots, Autoland systems, HGS, Auto brakes, ACARS, FMC's, ...lots of this stuff makes my job easier....it ain't as difficult as some would make it out to be.

Tejas

 

[Saluki Dawg]

Cmon Tejas, You know we don't use any of that there fancy hardware!

 

[Freight Dog]

Tejas, my 737-700 can beat up your 737-700.

Enjoy the retirement my friend... and BTW, check out this community:

http://www.bentwater.com

I own a new 4 bedroom house within spitting distance of the Yacht Club.

Golfing, fishing, boating, water sports, resort atmosphere.... brother, go enjoy your sunset years. You certainly deserved it.

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

L-NAV's, V-NAV's, Autothrottles, Auto-pilots, Autoland systems, HGS, Auto brakes, ACARS, FMC's, ...lots of this stuff makes my job easier....it ain't as difficult as some would make it out to be.Tejas

Tejas-Jet,

Your comments on the Age 65 debate are some of the most myopic I have seen to date. Get out of your bubble. Not everyone is flying daylight domestic legs on a highly automated 737.

For your information – thousands are flying in regional jets, regional turbo props, flying across multiple time zones, including grueling all-nighters. Look at the guys flying international and all-nighters – it ages the hell out of you. Fatigue is a major problem in our industry and with all the industry’s financial woes it’s only going to get worse. The older a pilot is, the more susceptible he/she to the onslaught of fatigue. Use some common sense and don’t be blinded by your greed.

Since I fly side saddle on the 767 International, I fly with many pilots approaching age 60. I see what it does to a pilot up close and personal. Though there are some that are great pilots, I get to see a great many guys sleeping and making stupid mistakes. Most of you pro-65 guys are living in a fantasy world. The age 60 rule is designed for the weakest link and is intended for our safety.

Common sense dictates flying to age 65 will be an inherently risky situation. The only reason the rule change is being considered is because a greedy few are trying to make themselves whole at the expense of all those junior.

There are only a couple more days remaining to submit your comments. Let the FAA and your Congressman know your thoughts.

Don’t let a greedy few compromise our safety and careers.

AA767AV8TOR

 

[Caveman]

Why is that junior pilots think they have a right to someone else's job but the guy they are trying to steal the job from is greedy? It's called seniority. You get to hold what your seniority will allow. Forcing someone out of a seniority based position because you want your turn isn't a part of the process.

Don't give me that 'you knew the rules' BS either. Rules change all the time. This is a legitimate attempt to change the rules because circumstances in the industry have changed. Quit being so greedy and start planning on being an FO for 5 more years. Sounds harsh when the tables are turned doesn't it?

I can accept that some of us don't want the rule changed and they have what they consider good rationale for keeping the status quo. What galls me is the attitude that somehow those that want to change the rule are greedy and self centered. BOTH sides are self centered. BOTH sides are looking out for their own best interests. The pro-60 group does not have the morale high ground on this issue. They just think they do.

You had better get used to it because it's going to change. Maybe not with this congress, but it will change. It's a global economy and every other industry has to work under recognized treaties. The airline business is no different. Since ICAO is now age 65 we will be too sooner or later.

 

[Daddy]

Why is that junior pilots think they have a right to someone else's job but the guy they are trying to steal the job from is greedy? It's called seniority. You get to hold what your seniority will allow. Forcing someone out of a seniority based position because you want your turn isn't a part of the process.

Actually part of the process is exactly what it is...and it's been that way for a LOOONGGG time...everyone has benefitted from it and suffered for it equally. Trying to change it now is an attempt to benefit both from the past AND the future...pretty typical for the boomer generation though.

 

[jbDC9]

Why is that junior pilots think they have a right to someone else's job but the guy they are trying to steal the job from is greedy? It's called seniority. You get to hold what your seniority will allow. Forcing someone out of a seniority based position because you want your turn isn't a part of the process.

Ah, so you're one of those idiots that think that it's all about junior guys wanting to steal the jobs of the senior, older guys. Tell ya what Einstein, didja ever stop and think that today's senior, older guys were once junior guys? And how did they advance to the top of the list? Yep, that's right, they stole seats from the generation ahead of them. See how it works? Everyone, including today's 59 yr old senior dudes, have benefitted from the rule.

Quit calling it "stealing", because that's just not the case.

 

[ils2minimums]

Ah, so you're one of those idiots that think that it's all about junior guys wanting to steal the jobs of the senior, older guys. Tell ya what Einstein, didja ever stop and think that today's senior, older guys were once junior guys? And how did they advance to the top of the list? Yep, that's right, they stole seats from the generation ahead of them. See how it works? Everyone, including today's 59 yr old senior dudes, have benefitted from the rule.

Quit calling it "stealing", because that's just not the case.

While I was contemplating a retort to caveman's post, jbDC9 posted the statement quoted above. So in the spirit of brevity, I'll just say "Ditto"...

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

Why is that junior pilots think they have a right to someone else's job but the guy they are trying to steal the job from is greedy? It's called seniority. You get to hold what your seniority will allow. Forcing someone out of a seniority based position because you want your turn isn't a part of the process.

Don't give me that 'you knew the rules' BS either. Rules change all the time. This is a legitimate attempt to change the rules because circumstances in the industry have changed. Quit being so greedy and start planning on being an FO for 5 more years. Sounds harsh when the tables are turned doesn't it?

Caveman,

The problem with what you and the rest of your greedy brethren are trying to pull is that you are attempting to steal right out of another pilot's pockets to line your own.

This is not a zero sum game. This is not attempt to enrich yourself from a better contract. It’s a direct transfer of wealth from junior to senior. There are only a few that will truly benefit from the increased age – those senior, holding the highest paying jobs. For all those junior, it is a diminishing sum game especially for those held out in furlough for an additional 3-5 years. There will be economic harm done to the junior crewmembers as you attempt to hold onto your seat an additional five years (and probably longer if you have your way). This is not some contract that changes every four or five years – it’s a federal rule that has been around for forty plus years. It’s one you should have planned for long ago.

Explain to me what’s changed? There have been pilots associated with bankruptcy, divorce and so forth for the last 40 years and the rule has never changed due to one’s personal problem.

Age 65 – good for a greedy few, bad for many.

AA767AV8TOR

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Tejas-Jet,

Since I fly side saddle on the 767 International, I fly with many pilots approaching age 60. I see what it does to a pilot up close and personal. Though there are some that are great pilots, I get to see a great many guys sleeping and making stupid mistakes. Most of you pro-65 guys are living in a fantasy world. The age 60 rule is designed for the weakest link and is intended for our safety.

Common sense dictates flying to age 65 will be an inherently risky situation. The only reason the rule change is being considered is because a greedy few are trying to make themselves whole at the expense of all those junior.

There are only a couple more days remaining to submit your comments. Let the FAA and your Congressman know your thoughts.

Don’t let a greedy few compromise our safety and careers.

Well, I know that flying at night, across multiple time zones can be tough....I'm really glad I don't do that anymore....but my question is....what did you do about those pilots you saw letting fatigue get the best of them? Did you tell your chief Pilot about them? What was the result? How do these guys perform during a line check? Obviously, these guys need to go now...and not even wait until age 60....but like my Doc says, "Everybody is different."

Have you considered going to your Professional Standards folks about these guys that are causing you some concern?

And, thanks for the reminder, but I've already let the FAA know my opinion on this and my Congressman and Senators are fully on board with the repeal of Age 60.

Tejas

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Tejas, my 737-700 can beat up your 737-700.

Enjoy the retirement my friend... and BTW, check out this community:

http://www.bentwater.com

I own a new 4 bedroom house within spitting distance of the Yacht Club.

Golfing, fishing, boating, water sports, resort atmosphere.... brother, go enjoy your sunset years. You certainly deserved it.

I'm a long way from age 60...but no doubt, I will enjoy my retirement years....no matter which age I am when I get there.

Tejas

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Cmon Tejas, You know we don't use any of that there fancy hardware!

Hey...I said "lots of" that stuff makes my job easier....but not all of it....yet.

Tejas

 

[Caveman]

Oh...I get it. I disagree with you so I'm an idoit. That's it? That's all ya got? Weak, very very weak.

I've never benefited from the age 60 rule. I've been way too junior my entire, albeit short, airline career. I've been against age 60 from the get go and there is nothing wrong with attempting to change the rules using established procedure for effecting change. You may be for or against the change but to characterize anyone that disagrees with you as an idiot is juvenile. Fine, you don't want it changed. That doesn't make you an idiot. How about growing up and giving others the same courtesy?

I'll say it again. You had better get prepared to be an FO longer than you thought. This rule will change sooner or later.

 

[two(2)%]

I'm a long way from age 60...but no doubt, I will enjoy my retirement years....no matter which age I am when I get there.

Tejas

I doubt you're a long way from age 60. I think it's right around the corner and you and Caveboy are desperate. We, the junior guys, aren't trying to force you out of your seniority (we won't help you either) we just don't think you're up to it anymore. Too bad time seems to move at warp speed when you get older.

 

[Bake]

Caveman, calling people weak, very very weak is also juvenile. So is saying "you better be prepared". Maybe you should have been prepared. Look in the mirror, maybe that is the boy you should be talking to. You are correct in the fact that it doesn't hurt to try and change the rules but it doesn't hurt to try and keep them the same either. Don't take life so seriously, nobody gets out alive.

 

[Caveman]

Caveman, calling people weak, very very weak is also juvenile. So is saying "you better be prepared". Maybe you should have been prepared. Look in the mirror, maybe that is the boy you should be talking to. You are correct in the fact that it doesn't hurt to try and change the rules but it doesn't hurt to try and keep them the same either. Don't take life so seriously, nobody gets out alive.

I am preparing and I am a long way from 60. Well, not a long way but it's not around the corner either. My only objection to age 60 is based on my libertarian philosophy. If I'm able to work in my chosen occupation it's nobody elses business whether I choose to or not, especially the government. The rule is arbitrary and not based on any research. Fifty years ago in a back room deal somebody flipped a coin and came up with 60. It could have easily been 48 or 93. Not that the age 60 rule is anywhere near as serious as laws regarding racial separation, but those laws had been around for a long time too. They were changed because they were wrong. IMO age 60 is wrong for similar reasons, even though the issue isn't nearly as heinous.

As far as 'weak' goes, I said their argument or rather their lack of a reasonable discourse was weak when they resort to name calling. Advising someone to prepare for a change that is coming isn't a personal insult.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

71 year old pilot decides to stop flying after 30 years

http://news.yahoo.com/s/wpbf/20061114/lo_wpbf/10307561

 

[luckytohaveajob]

What was Messmore's position on age 60?

What was Messmore's position on age 60?

http://www.koin.com/Global/story.asp?S=5648220&nav=menu494_2

 

[luckytohaveajob]

65 experienced pilot kills himself

40 years flying experience, 30,000 hours, and still made a fatal mistake


http://www.demingheadlight.com/news/ci_4648086

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Another 65 year old pilot kills himself

http://www.kobtv.com/index.cfm?viewer=storyviewer&id=28807&cat=NMTOPSTORIES

 

[A4Forever]

Geezzzz Lucky, I'm sure glad that no pilot under the age of 65 has EVER crashed and killed himself. Your point is?

 

[jbDC9]

Oh...I get it. I disagree with you so I'm an idiot. That's it? That's all ya got? Weak, very very weak.

Alrighty then, perhaps I threw out the "idiot" card a bit too soon... I'm used to hearing that "stealing seniority" drivel from Klako and UndauntedFlyer, in which case I call 'em idiots. Why you might ask? Because it's an idiotic and narrow minded point of view. To say that the junior guys are stealing seats from the senior guys is just stupid. And, as I mentioned before, if you want to call it stealing, then the senior guys are doing it too.

So, lets revisit your earlier post;

It's called seniority. You get to hold what your seniority will allow. Forcing someone out of a seniority based position because you want your turn isn't a part of the process.

Yep, it's called seniority alright, and we hold what our seniority allows. So far you have it right... but your 3rd sentence here is completely wrong; it is a part of the process and has been since 1959. Everyone has benefitted from the rule, even the senior guys.

 

[Freight Dog]

Geezzzz Lucky, I'm sure glad that no pilot under the age of 65 has EVER crashed and killed himself. Your point is?

Well, it appears to me that two of those accidents appear to be related to heart attacks or some other form of incapacitation.

On top of this... I have a question for Tejas. What is Pro Stands gonna do if I call them about a senior pilot who's really fallen behind the power curve? Tell ya what... they'll try to call him and talk to him, and that senior gentleman is going to tell them to pound sand and now that is the end of it.

When was the last time you showed up sick when you probably shouldn't? If you say never, I'll know you're BSing. It's the same concept... we're go-getters, and the likelihood of some old grampaw grounding himself for being old, decrepit and not quite up to speed is about the same as a dog laying an egg.

That's the whole problem with raising the age limit or eliminating it altogether - most "seasoned" pilots do not see their abilities eroded. I compared it to hypoxia. You think you're fine, but you're screwing up big time. Aging is the same thing.

Leave the rule alone and enjoy working on your boat.