How many Delta pilots still on the street?

[atp160]

Just wondering how many delta pilots are still on the street? Are recalls almost complete and do you think they might hire next year? Thanks.

 

[The_Russian]

I heard somewhere around 400.

 

[poppi]

264 pilots

 

[On Your Six]

I heard a rumor of potential Delta hiring in the latter Spring. Many of the remaining furloughees have accepted employment elsewhere and will not return meaning that there will be a need for new pilots eventually. With new 757s being added (former TWA) and potentially MD80s, the need may happen sooner than later. No confirmed timetable though.

 

[michael707767]

264 pilots

264 is the number who have not been offered recall. Which is not really correct because there are a lot who have been offered the Nov 1 class, but bypassed. The number will not officially change until Nov 1 though. I would bet on Nov 1 the number drops to less than 200. By the time we get through the announced recall classes, the number will be under 50.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

mike,
Has TBKane been called yet?

 

[michael707767]

mike,
Has TBKane been called yet?

not yet. And he may not be for the announced recalls. But, it will get close to him.

prior to the current batch of 65 recalls, we had 356 still on furlough. As of last friday, they had offered recall to 176 pilots. They still have 32 of the 65 to fill.

I noticed also the latest latter said there are 32 more slots to fill "for the rest of the year", which seems to imply there are more recalls coming.

 

[GogglesPisano]

It sounds as though raising the retirement age will not have muh of an impact, since DL's projected retirements are only 91 though '08,

 

[JethroFDX]

3 or 5

I belive DAL had 3 and 5 year deferrals. A friend of mine has a year to go on his three year and is going back.

 

[tbkane]

The deferals have to wait until all furloughees have been offered recall. And no I have not been offered recall.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Here is to getting called ASAP.

 

[PCL_128]

I belive DAL had 3 and 5 year deferrals. A friend of mine has a year to go on his three year and is going back.

I believe the concessionary TA included a deferral extension to 10 years.

 

[FDJ2]

I believe the concessionary TA included a deferral extension to 10 years.

"A furloughed pilot may bypass recall for a period not to exceed ten years from his date of furlough."

"A recalled pilot who returns to duty and is furloughed again may bypass recall for a period not to exceed ten years from the date of his subsequent furlough"​

 

[poppi]

new number 169 as of today

 

[Tomct]

new number 169 as of today

I dare say that maybe 50 will come back to Delta. No movement for them and only a few aircraft coming within the next couple of years! Hope for the best!

 

[General Lee]

I dare say that maybe 50 will come back to Delta. No movement for them and only a few aircraft coming within the next couple of years! Hope for the best!

That is not what I am hearing. We supposedly will have more than 45 plus aircraft within the next 5 years, including some new 777s.(net aircraft) That will create a lot of movement. Also, Delta apparently expects more than 300 pilots to "just leave" after they receive their lump sum payout for the pension dump (the $650 million for the pilots) plus the equity stake in the company. Those 300 most likely will be Captains, going off to Emirates or somewhere else where they can get a Direct Entry Captain job with little or no taxes. (Middle East). That is what I have heard at the ATL CPO. Movement.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[warbirdfinder]

There are no more lump sum payouts. Remember the termination?

 

[Jonny Sacko]

Wasn't there some deal where the company would have to pay out if they reached certain financial descriptors?? The company was fretting about this scenario, and maybe that's the part deleted, but I wasn't sure?

 

[michael707767]

There are no more lump sum payouts. Remember the termination?

there is no more lump, nor is there any more pension. What we did get as part of LOA 51 was a $650 million note to be distributed among the pilots. The money from that is what General Lee is referring too. For the more senior pilots, it could be upwards of 300K.

I have no doubt some pilots will leave once this money is distributed. But I don't think it will be 300.

 

[Launchpad]

Anyone know a ballpark number of pilots on the 3 yr and 5 yr LOA's, and when those dates are coming back around?

Thanks-

 

[AA717driver]

If you're on a 3 yr. LOA, will you be able to bypass when the LOA is over? TC

 

[FDJ2]

There are no more lump sum payouts. Remember the termination?

Not true, the $2.1B DAL claim, plus $650M note will be quite a tidy lump sum payout.

 

[General Lee]

There are no more lump sum payouts. Remember the termination?

I am talking about the $650 million in pension pay outs to remaining pilots, not the old pension with lump sums. The rest of us will be getting a cut of $650 million. That plus the equity cut will give some guys a large sum, and many are expected to take that and leave.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[warbirdfinder]

This may be an overkill answer, it is an excerpt from a longer letter.

In fact, HR 4 is now - Public Law 109-280. The applicable SECTION is Section 103, "BENEFIT LIMITATIONS UNDER SINGLE-EMPLOYER PLANS." Per the Bill, the "EFFECTIVE DATES" of Sec 103 (c) (1), which is entitled "IN GENERAL. --" of the Amendments is for "plan years beginning after 31 December, 2007." Further, there is a "COLLECTIVE BARGAINING EXCEPTION. --" in Section 103 (c) (2) that says for CBAs reached prior to 1 January 2008, the section shall not apply until the termination date of the CBA, or 1/1/2010 if later.
[FONT=Helvetica, Verdana, Arial]
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]****** For Simplicity and clarity, I RECOMMEND THAT YOU ASK THAT THE FOLLOWING "TECHNICAL CORRECTION" BE ADDED TO THE BILL****
Ask that the phrase, "Except for the Plans of Delta Air Lines," be added to the beginning of Section 103 (c) (1) and Section 103 (c) (2).
[/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, Verdana, Arial]
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial] You may wish to include that this "technical correction" will enable Delta Air Lines to meet its pension obligations to not only its non-contract workers and management, who are NOT under a collectively bargained plan, but to ALL of it's deserving employees. Additionally, it will preclude the Federal Government (the PBGC) from inheriting approximately $1.5B in Pension Obligations that Delta will then have 17 years to comfortably make up, as was the original intent of the legislation in general, and the "commercial airline exception" provision in particular..
[/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, Verdana, Arial]
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial] In my view, there is clearly some hope for success in this, so I am taking the shot and hope that you will also. As you have seen if you ran through the "PBGC Math" of my recent email, (which is the BEST CASE scenario, based on ALPA guidance) we all stand to lose a huge amount if the Pension Plan is allowed to be terminated.
Additionally, there will be a MASSIVE financial loss for active Delta pilots who are in PC4, and wh o in my judgment have not been well-represented in this matter by their Union. They, in fact, may have the most to lose in the aggregate. Most active PC4 pilots, in my opinion, have little idea of the magnitude of that loss. For many, it is in the HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of lifetime dollars individually, versus their PC4, PBGC Max Guarantee, even on our "hard frozen" Plan. The $650M note that ALPA negotiated will put but a small dent in that. It will not come even remotely close to making anyone whole.
Post Bankruptcy, Delta will make a ton of money, and has NEVER said that they cannot afford to pay these Qualified Pension benefits -- they have primarily focused on the "arguments" of the Liquidity Shortfall contributions and a specious "operational disruption" scenario should Lump Sums again be permitted, as they have stated they MUST be under ERISA. Finally, they have had their hired guns state that they could not get exit financing with the "Lump Sum issue ha nging over the heads" of DIP financiers.
- With no Lump Sums, there is no Liquidity Shortfall.
- With no Lump Sums, there is no "operational disruption" scenario.
- And finally, all Delta's arguments that suggest that Lump Sums impact exit financing, since they may again have to be paid prior to the change of the Lump Sum computation methodology, or prior to the expiration of the "CBA Exception" to the legislation ignore the fact that Lump Sums will be prohibited SIMPLY BASED ON FUNDING LEVELS until VERY FAR into the future, when the Plan funding reaches the threshold levels of this new legislation. Then, and only then, when the Plan is healthy enough to permit Lump Sums, will Lumps ever be paid under this sweeping reform legislation.
[/FONT]

 

[Pat Fabin]

I think we're talking apples and oranges here. There lump sum will no longer be available from the defined benefit plan if someone retires right now due to the liquidity shortfall. They won't be available PERIOD once the PBGC officially takes over the plan.

The general is talking about the cash/stock coming from the $2.1b claim and the $650m note.

 

[General Lee]

I think we're talking apples and oranges here. There lump sum will no longer be available from the defined benefit plan if someone retires right now due to the liquidity shortfall. They won't be available PERIOD once the PBGC officially takes over the plan.

The general is talking about the cash/stock coming from the $2.1b claim and the $650m note.

Correct.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[800Dog]

I am talking about the $650 million in pension pay outs to remaining pilots, not the old pension with lump sums. The rest of us will be getting a cut of $650 million. That plus the equity cut will give some guys a large sum, and many are expected to take that and leave.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I beg to differ. Noone will be getting a large sum. Once the claim is sold, it will be for pennies on the $. Noone will get near what they would have if we held on the the DB plan and lump sum option. Better than nothing but, certainly not a large sum.

 

[michael707767]

I beg to differ. Noone will be getting a large sum. Once the claim is sold, it will be for pennies on the $. Noone will get near what they would have if we held on the the DB plan and lump sum option. Better than nothing but, certainly not a large sum.

the claim will likely come in at .25 or higher on the dollar. For a mid level guy, the claim is about 300K, and at .25 on the dollar that amounts to about 75K. I bet it comes in higher than that. They have yet to decide how to distribute the 650 million from the note, but it's not like the claim. We will get all 650 mil. The two combined could be a large amount for a senior pilot.

 

[800Dog]

the claim will likely come in at .25 or higher on the dollar. As a mid level guy, my claim is about 300K, and at .25 on the dollar that amounts to about 75K. I bet it comes in higher than that. They have yet to decide how to distribute the 650 million from the note, but it's not like the claim. We will get all 650 mil. The two combined could be a large amount for a senior pilot.

What is your definition of a large amount. My lump would have been worth close to 1.5 million at age 60. A very senior pilot might see what, 300k when all is said and done. Hardly a large amount. Better than nothing but, hardly a windfall nor enough to cause many to move on to greener pastures.

 

[michael707767]

What is your definition of a large amount. My lump would have been worth close to 1.5 million at age 60. A very senior pilot might see what, 300k when all is said and done. Hardly a large amount. Better than nothing but, hardly a windfall nor enough to cause many to move on to greener pastures.

compared to 1.5 mil, no its not a large amount. And if you look back at my posts in this thread you will see I did say I think a senior guy will see about 300K+.

My point is simply this....its enough that if someone is planning on leaving, its worth sticking around for a bit to be sure you get it.

I have said before, I personally don't think there are large numbers of guys who will leave after they get the money. But I also don't doubt there will be a few.

FWIW I am sorry you lost your lump. I did too. Nothing we can do about it now. The pension is gone. The claim and the note won't make up for it. But, if you don't want it....I'll take it.